Environment Committee on June 17th, 2013

[Stuart Pinks]

Yes.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

It's actually quite a large area in and around the island itself, which is remarkable, as this is a park—the point made by Ms. Leslie—that's in an active petroleum development field.

I just wanted to put on the record that it is quite a large area that Bill S-15 is protecting. I think it's something that is positive.

Ms. Lucas, you spoke a little bit about the development of the parks management plan. I think a lot of the potential issues that we've raised in the debate in the House and here...we've heard from witnesses that this will be an excellent opportunity to address those through the development of this plan.

Could you perhaps elaborate for the committee on some of the things that you, being one of the leading experts on Sable, would be looking to see in the development of this plan?

[Zoe Lucas]

Well, I would start by saying that I agree with almost all the concerns expressed by Mark Butler regarding activities around the island and how they might have been better approached.

However, I've been involved on the island for so long. I have worked, have been involved, and certainly have interacted with the offshore petroleum board for several decades, and the offshore industry. I think many of the things that are of concern up front now can be addressed, as Mark suggested, if you bring all the players together during the development of the management plan and start looking at ways in which some of the worries might be addressed, such as the concerns around the impact of low-impact industry activity on the island.

That's one of the things that will have to be addressed during the development of the management policy. Certainly the development of the guidance and interpretive notes will contribute to that and will be informed by that. The management plan will also have to address not only the activities of visitors—the number of visitors and their activities on the island—but also the activities of researchers, including government researchers and university researchers, and the activities of media.

There's quite a wide range of people who have an interest in being on Sable Island. There has been tourism to Sable Island for many decades, indeed including some expeditions that have delivered 100 to 120 people to the island at one go, so there is experience. There is long-term experience in dealing with visitors to Sable Island as individuals, people coming by boat, people coming by air, and people turning up unexpectedly. That experience is there, and that can also be brought to the development of the management plan.

I think the management plan is going to start with a biodiversity assessment which is just beginning now. It is bringing together all the science research that's present, that's already been done, regarding Sable Island, and adding some new data. It's going to actually define what the ecological environmental issues are that have to be addressed, and how they might be addressed in the management plan.

It's a combination of managing people, managing activities, and managing the environment.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

Just to follow on that question, we're quite interested, both in the House and here, in the approach you took in working with industry on low-impact seismic testing in the late 1990s.

In your experience working with industry, are you optimistic that through the development of the management plan or an MOU an appropriate protocol could be developed that respects the ecological integrity of Sable Island but still allows for this type of activity in a very confined, prescribed manner?

[Zoe Lucas]

Yes. My experience, and I'll just use one example, would be the regulations imposed by the Offshore Petroleum Board on, for instance, the seabird surveys that I conduct.... The monitoring and the oversight of activities and the very stringent requirements for assessments and reporting indicate that this kind of cooperation by industry, Parks Canada, and the community will produce very helpful and effective guidelines and policies for the management and protection of Sable Island.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you, Ms. Rempel.

We'll move now to Ms. Leslie, for five minutes.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Zoe Lucas, it is so nice to hear your voice. It's really great to have you be a part of this. I know you've been following this debate pretty closely. I've said in the House and at committee before that I want to support this bill, that I think it's a very good thing that Sable Island national park will be created, but I won't support this bill at any cost. I've been back and forth a lot with what our position should be, what my position should be, and the position I recommend to the NDP, as the environment critic.

On the whole, I believe this is a bill worth supporting to create these protections. But I have to admit, I breathed a great sigh of relief tonight when you said unequivocally that you support this bill. I love Mark Butler and Chris Miller, and I really respect their work, but I think there's no one I trust more on this issue than you.

I know you already said it, but this is something you think we should support. Is that correct?

[Zoe Lucas]

Yes.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

That's a simple answer.

[Zoe Lucas]

As I said, I agree with the concerns expressed by the Ecology Action Centre. My feeling is that because of the circumstances and the difficulties that the island has faced during the last 15 years in terms of who is going to manage it, how it's going to be managed, what is to become of it, whether there is even going to be a human presence on Sable Island, which is essential, I think it's really important to pass this bill.

Because there is so much goodwill and so much commitment on the part of the community, government, and industry on protecting Sable Island, a recognition that this is an absolute priority, we could expect that during the next few years, with developing a management policy and with the consultations between Parks Canada, the Offshore Petroleum Board, and the industry, hopefully many of the concerns that have been expressed by CPAWS and the Ecology Action Centre can be dealt with.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thanks.

I share those concerns with the Ecology Action Centre and CPAWS as well.

Mr. Miller and Mr. Butler, I want to turn the rest of my time over to the two of you to talk about what happens next. We are going to vote on this legislation very soon. Assuming it passes, what's next? Zoe has touched on it, with the development and management policy.

What would you prioritize? Let's start with Mark.

[Mark Butler]

Are you speaking specifically about oil and gas, or everything?

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Everything.

[Mark Butler]

On the question of oil and gas, I think we've been over it enough, and I've made my point fairly clearly. My lament is that we didn't ask industry whether they would be willing to give up more than they currently have.

I sit on the stakeholder committee, which is industry, government, and NGOs, and I've always found industry to have lots of goodwill toward the island, and to be extremely supportive of protecting the island, hence my thought that with a bit of discussion, maybe we could have had a park that would have been a little cleaner when it came to oil and gas activity.

After oil and gas comes human visitation. We have to find the right balance. We have to regulate how, when, and how many people visit the island. People have been visiting the island, and I think they should continue to do so, but we need to be very careful about how they do it. Parks Canada has lots of experience there, so that's welcome. Not all 30-million-plus Canadians can visit the island, so we have to find good ways to interpret the island for them on the mainland and on the Internet, etc.

One thing I would note is the people who can visit the island, for the most part, are reasonably wealthy because it costs up to $5,000 to $10,000 to get to the island, depending on how you get there, unless you're a fisherman perhaps. It would be interesting to find a way so each year three or four Canadians could be selected to visit the island through a lottery or something like that, who couldn't otherwise afford to go. That's not a top priority in terms of ecological integrity, but a lot of Canadians can't afford to go to the island and that might be a nice way to let them have a possible chance.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you, Mr. Butler and Ms. Leslie.

We'll move now to Ms. Duncan for the final five-minute round.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Pinks, do you have any thoughts on what you would like to see included in an MOU between your organization and Parks Canada?

[Stuart Pinks]

We've had an excellent working relationship with Parks Canada since this idea was conceived back in 2010. We've participated with them on the joint federal-provincial task force and on the working groups, and I think you sit on one of the working groups as well.

[Elizabeth MacDonald]

That's correct.

[Stuart Pinks]

We'd definitely like to continue that dialogue. We want to work hand in hand with Parks Canada, looking at defining what type of low-impact exploration activities can take place and under what circumstances. We'd want to work with them on developing the protocol, if and when we ever did get an authorization request that included the national park reserve, and how we would manage that with Parks Canada.

Going back to your previous point, we see Parks Canada as the custodian of the island; we fully recognize that. We want to make sure when we're managing the regulatory aspects of oil and gas that we fully embrace what Parks Canada is looking for, at the same time working within the confines of the regulations and the legislation we have to uphold.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to pick up on low impact, since you brought it up. You've heard it over and over again tonight. Can you give an example of what you see low impact to be?

[Stuart Pinks]

From what I can tell from the debate, people are focusing on seismic activity.

I think we heard Mr. Barry say that the seismic data that is available at the moment is of pretty good quality, so there's no need in the foreseeable future to be collecting more seismic work. But we don't know where seismic technology may go in the future. It's really important to the oil and gas industry from an economic perspective, but also from a safety and environmental protection perspective, to have good quality seismic data.

For instance, if there were a step change and one could collect additional seismic data with as minimal an impact as possible to the island, that would be useful in determining whether the reserves really are what they think they are, in helping them pick a location to access the reservoir, if they wanted to produce perhaps not under the island but adjacent to the island; or it may give them data that says it's not what they thought it was or that it's so fractured it's not worth producing. You might save a well and not have development that might otherwise have occurred.

Last, from a safety and environmental protection perspective, having good quality seismic data really helps you in designing your drilling program, such as where you set your casing, how you run your mud program, and how you monitor and deal with pressure gradients, so you can drill more safely.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you.

That's a bit different from what I was hearing from Parks Canada, which said there are no exact details and no discussion of when low impact becomes high impact. We even heard about hand drilling and coring. I appreciate your explanation very much.

My last question is for Ms. Lucas.

Could you describe what your relationship is with Parks Canada and with the CNSOPB, please?

[Zoe Lucas]

I don't have a relationship with Parks Canada as I'm not employed by or working for Parks Canada. At the moment I have a small contract to monitor bird strikes in the wind turbine area at the Sable Island station, but that's about it.

I have a relationship with the offshore board only because I am doing work on Sable Island that's associated with the offshore industry, which has to do with these environmental effects monitoring programs surveys. The results of my surveys and the protocol for the study have to be submitted to the board for review.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you, Ms. Duncan.

Ms. Rempel.