Evidence of meeting #18 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 41st Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was phosphorus.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
Thanks.
Regarding the Fisheries Act, being on both committees and having involvement with changes to the Fisheries Act, let me try to set your minds at ease in terms of what the changes mean.
Dr. Chow-Fraser, you talked about how over the last little while there are no muskies due to the fact that the muskie habitat has been lost.
Professor, Director of Life Sciences Program, McMaster University, Department of Biology, As an Individual
No, the large muskies are still there. People can still fish them.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
But muskie production has declined because of a lack of habitat.
Professor, Director of Life Sciences Program, McMaster University, Department of Biology, As an Individual
The recruitment, yes.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
Over how many years did that habitat loss happen?
Professor, Director of Life Sciences Program, McMaster University, Department of Biology, As an Individual
That probably has been since about 1999.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
That was under the old Fisheries Act, wasn't it?
Professor, Director of Life Sciences Program, McMaster University, Department of Biology, As an Individual
Yes. Well, absolutely, but it's—
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
Excuse me, but that tells me that the old Fisheries Act was ineffective.
Professor, Director of Life Sciences Program, McMaster University, Department of Biology, As an Individual
I wouldn't say it was ineffective, no.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
But having the old Fisheries Act in place did not help with this serious decline in muskie habitat.
Professor, Director of Life Sciences Program, McMaster University, Department of Biology, As an Individual
What we're talking about here is invasive species coming in. The Fisheries Act does not necessarily fix everything that—
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
But you attributed the muskie decline to a loss of habitat. I'm making the point—
Professor, Director of Life Sciences Program, McMaster University, Department of Biology, As an Individual
No. Okay, I'm sorry; what I'm saying is that we have to look at the habitats in order to manage it—
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
As a fisheries biologist myself, I will never argue with that. Of course we have to look at the habitat. The question is the legislative mechanisms that are in place.
When I look at the status of fisheries across the country, most of them are in fairly decent shape, but again, where they are not in decent shape, where we are losing habitat, such as in some watersheds in B.C., all of that happened under the old Fisheries Act. I would submit that the old Fisheries Act was overly broad, overly prescriptive, and mandated by the courts in such a way that the effect on actual fisheries was minimal.
For example, our new Fisheries Act allows partnerships with local groups. We formed a $25-million program and created the recreational fisheries conservation partnerships program. As of last July we funded 100 fisheries habitat projects across the country in cooperation with angling groups. Perhaps some of you are aware of the program. There are over 100 more habitat projects about to be announced. With the extra $15 million in our recreational conservation partnerships program, we are easily looking at another 200 habitat projects across the country. Those kinds of partnerships are allowed because we have a new Fisheries Act.
Dr. Ridal, don't you think that's a worthwhile change in the Fisheries Act?
Executive Director, St. Lawrence River Institute of Environmental Sciences
Absolutely, I think in terms of the projects under way, I do agree that any project to improve habitat and to...is effective.
In a sense, I guess everything can be criticized one way or the other in terms of what our concerns are. That's the business of politics. Ultimately I think time will tell, right? We'll look over history to see whether or not, unless there's a change....
I'm sure we're not going to convince you to change the Fisheries Act now that it has been changed. Certainly the concerns have been out there. I'm not a fisheries scientist myself, so I would admittedly not be in a position of authority to speak on it. I simply believe there are concerns with respect to aspects of the Fisheries Act with respect to not protecting...or the focus on economically viable fisheries and a loss of focus on, as Dr. Chow-Fraser mentioned, the other species that often support the fisheries.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
Again, I would urge you to read the Fisheries Act. The act specifically talks about fish that support recreational, commercial, and aboriginal fisheries. The forage fish species are under the Fisheries Act.
The key is not economically important fisheries. There are fisheries that are important to people. There may be a small town with a small lake close by that's not worth a lot of money, but the kids like to fish there. It may not generate a huge tourism boom for the town, but that is an important fishery.
I think a focus on the fisheries that people actually care about, that people use, that people want.... You're actually going to see that probably 90% of Canada's watersheds are covered by that definition. Most of B.C. is.
Again, I would urge an open mind in terms of the Fisheries Act. I would look at the data itself. I would make the point that the predictions for the 2014 Pacific salmon run are a record in history. You might want to see some of the predictions there. While I'm not brash enough to take credit for that, I will make the point that this magnificent salmon run will have occurred on our watch as a government.
Thank you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht
Thank you, Mr. Sopuck.
We'll move now to Mr. Choquette.
Mr. Choquette, you have five minutes.
NDP
François Choquette NDP Drummond, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My questions are for Ms. Patricia Chow-Fraser.
Among other things, you talked about the consequences of climate change on the water quality of the Great Lakes. I do not know if you have established a link between climate change and water levels, but I know that you talked about the levels of offshores waters. You said that the average water level was 176 metres. That is what I remembered, although it might have been a different figure. This year is a record year. You can see that in the long term, water levels are going down. Can you tell me whether this is possibly connected to the problem of climate change?
You also talked about water temperature. This also concerns me. They say that water temperature could affect water quality. I think that you said that a temperature of 27.5 degrees Celsius is dangerous for northern pike, which would not be able to feed itself anymore.
Lastly, I will ask you a whole series of questions, because I have so many.
You also said that the government should play a greater role in research, of course, I am thinking of the experimental lakes in Northern Ontario which the Conservatives have unfortunately abandoned.
All of these things which we are discussing are not even included in the official study we are currently undertaking. It would truly be a shame if the final report did not address these matters, including climate change, water levels and water temperature.
I would like you to tell us what you think about these things.
Professor, Director of Life Sciences Program, McMaster University, Department of Biology, As an Individual
Okay.
I'm not a climate scientist, but I know from reading that the global circulation models do predict that with climate change there will be a drop in water levels. This is a link that I don't do research in, but this is what I've read. This drop in water levels that we're seeing now is predicted. I think that a lot of people are saying that it is climate change related.
There's not very much that's known about the temperature of the water changing as a result of.... There's a site-to-site variation. A lot of that warmer temperature is a result of not having snow covering the ice on the lakes during the wintertime so that it actually gets a head start with the warming. Some of the graphs I wasn't able to show you show that in the last 10 years, for instance, deviations from the norm have increased a lot over the areas that we've sampled.
It's also because of the bathymetry of the lakes. When you have a gradually lowering water shape of the basin, as water goes down, it's going to heat up. Basically, it's a function of the shape of the basin. That's also a very site-specific thing. Deeper water is not going to be affected as much because it's in the middle of the water column, so it's the edge. Whenever you have a lip around the lake, like Georgian Bay in the Severn Sound area, it's very prone to that kind of heating up. It would definitely be important for you to include temperature as one of the effects of the quality of the water because that's what's governing whether the fish can go in or not.
Representative, Forum for Leadership on Water
May I add to that?
Except for this year, we've seen a very steady decline in the ice cover of the lakes. Much of the evaporation from those lakes occurs in the winter period. You see a lot of water going into the atmosphere from the lakes in the cold season. If you have them covered with ice, that doesn't happen; but if you have them open, it happens much more frequently. That has contributed, along with other things, to the decline of the level of Lake Michigan and Lake Huron. The surface water temperatures are going up as well, and we're seeing more runoff with increased frequency of heavy rain and snowmelt periods in the changing climate.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht
Thank you very much.
We move now to Mr. Storseth, for five minutes.
Conservative
Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB
Mr. Chair, I want to thank everybody for coming.
Mr. Chair, I should actually say that I was asked to share my time with Mr. Sopuck, any time that I have left, but I doubt that will actually occur.
I have several questions. One is in regard to the conversation we've been having on Georgian Bay. Can you tell me how much the temperature of the water has increased and over what time period?
