Environment Committee on Oct. 6th, 2014

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

So it's not that the ministry's regulations would need to be stricter. It's that they can't prove that they would—

[Dr. Stan R. Blecher]

They have no way of knowing what they're going to put out. Everything that they've claimed would be the figures is what I call guesswork; they calculated it from certain figures, they multiply this by that, and then they get a figure.

The Government of Ontario, incidentally, doesn't put out regulations or limits, which is also something incorrect that the company tells you. The company tells you that they're going to be conforming to the Government of Ontario limits, but the Government of Ontario doesn't put out limits. It puts out guidelines.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Right, okay.

The federal government has signed on to the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants. We signed on in 2001. It clearly states that authorities are obliged to give priority consideration to waste management methods that “avoid the formation and release” of dioxins. Do you feel that REM technology—the Port Hope incinerator—would be contrary to the Stockholm convention?

[Dr. Stan R. Blecher]

Absolutely. There's not the slightest question. There is no incinerator yet constructed that doesn't produce dioxins, and I'm delighted to hear the sentence that you read out there.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Thank you.

Unfortunately, I'm going to interrupt you because I want to use my last 30 seconds to read into the record two motions we have. Thank you very much.

The first is that the Standing Committee on the Environment and Sustainable Development invite the authors of the “2014 Fall Report of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development” to appear no later than October 9, 2014, for a two-hour-long meeting. The second is that the Standing Committee on the Environment and Sustainable Development invite officials from Environment Canada, the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency, the National Energy Board, as well as the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commissioner, to appear no later than October 22, 2014, for a two-hour-long meeting.

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to our witness.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Mr. Woodworth.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, in accordance with our usual practice, as these motions are dealing with committee business, if we are to discuss them at this time I propose that we move into a closed, in camera meeting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

We definitely have it on the record that we are having committee business at 4:30. We can move into it now, if the committee so wishes, or we can set this aside, allow one more question, and then move in camera.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I'd be happy to wait, if that's suitable to the mover.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

That sounds good. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Okay. We'll move to Mr. Toet for the last five-minute round of questions.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I may share my time with Ms. Ambler. I have a couple of questions.

I want to focus, Dr. Belcher—and I thank you very much—

[Dr. Stan R. Blecher]

Actually, my name is “Blecher”.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I'm sorry.

I thank you very much for your testimony today. I want to focus on how you believe very strongly that we have the ability to go to 100% recycling of waste products and waste materials. In your opinion, how are we best served in bringing that forward, in conjunction with municipalities, to embrace new technologies?

You referred to the technology we heard about from one of our witnesses regarding the ability to separate plastics by just a reader, basically, which will see what's in that plastic and will be able to separate it out. It doesn't have to read a bar code. It doesn't have to read any kind of recycling symbol or anything. It actually reads the material itself.

I know that from one of our other witnesses after that meeting, when I talked to one of the municipal groups, there's some resistance to that. There was a sense of “well, we've always done it this way, we separate it at the home, and it's a new technology”.

How do we work to try to encourage municipalities? I say so because part of our study focuses on technological innovation in such management and on the best practices of provincial, territorial, and municipal jurisdictions. How do we work with those municipalities to bring forward those best practices that you've referred to?

[Dr. Stan R. Blecher]

Well, sir, I'm not sure this is in my area of expertise either, but I would answer it in a manner similar to the way I answered a question previously, that is, I can see a role for government agencies and federal agencies in encouraging a change in attitude in the population. It's a philosophical question: what makes people think this way and not that way? I think it's an entire culture change that we need, and I would imagine that a committee such as this could have a strong influence in creating such a cultural change.

All I can say on the matter is that I would love to see the promotion of the three Rs and the promotion of the recycling industries. These are an industrial potential for this country that this country has not yet fulfilled. I think any encouragement of recycling as an industry would be something worthwhile doing.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

So from that, can I take it that you're saying that what we want to do is encourage the movement in that direction, facilitate the thought process in that direction, but actually the private sector developing these technologies would be the ones to actually bring it forward to our municipalities?

[Dr. Stan R. Blecher]

Well, sir, I really and truly believe this is not something that I can answer. I'm a geneticist and a doctor, so I'm not sure that's where I can give any advice.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

All right. Thank you.

I'll give the rest of my time to Ms. Ambler.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Dr. Blecher, for being here today.

I wanted to ask you about the health concerns, in particular in the geographical area around Port Hope. I'm wondering about the specific incinerator. What, in your opinion, is the area of concern? In other words, how far out does the danger zone go? How many residents, how many Canadians, would be affected? Would it just be in the County of Northumberland? Should Mr. McKay's constituents in Scarborough be concerned? How about mine in Mississauga?

I know that's probably not an easy question to answer.

[Dr. Stan R. Blecher]

No, actually, it's quite an easy question to answer, and I'm glad you asked it.

Dioxins—the worst of the products of the incinerator—produced in Florida have been detected in our Great Lakes here, in Lake Ontario. They can travel thousands and thousands of kilometres. So yes, your ridings in Mississauga and Scarborough and everywhere else in Ontario, everywhere else in Canada, are at risk.

We have detected particles from dust and other waste products from across the Atlantic. Particles originating in Europe are being detected in the United States. Particles originating in Africa are being detected in Great Britain. There is no limit. These things do not stop at boundaries.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Thank you.

Do you know anything about compost facilities? Specifically, there is one in Peel Region that creates, from compost material, soil that is then sold to whomever wants to buy it.

[Dr. Stan R. Blecher]

Yes. I understand it's a very good and clean procedure, and I encourage it, but I'm not an expert on it.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you very much, Dr. Blecher, for being here today.

Thank you to our committee members for some great questions.

This will certainly be helpful in producing our final report as we conclude this study later on.

[Dr. Stan R. Blecher]

Thank you very much for having me here.