Environment Committee on Oct. 20th, 2014

[Rachel Kagan]

Forty per cent of—

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

From, if you will, the farmer's gate to post-table, after cleaning up the dishes.

[Rachel Kagan]

I think it was this: there's been a recent study on food waste and where food waste happens along the entire supply chain, from farmers to consumers.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Yes, that's what I mean.

[Rachel Kagan]

The study found that consumers waste at home about 40% to 50% of what they buy. I think a lot of it is produce, but there is food waste that occurs. Right now we're studying food waste where it lies on our value chain, which is just the food manufacturing process. Where does that happen? Is it technical, start-ups and shutdowns? We're just doing some work on that right now.

Food waste happens along the entire supply chain. The biggest part of it is the consumer, but there are other parts, retailers, food manufacturers, so we're assessing that and looking at what we can do to have some influence to try to lower that number. A big part of that is I think there's a good opportunity to help change consumer behaviour: buy what you need, cook up leftovers, proper storage techniques, things like that.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Yes, maybe not buying so much in the first place.

[Rachel Kagan]

Absolutely. For sure.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Clearly there's been a movement on the part of food “manufacturers” to ship product in packaging that won't damage it, particularly fruits, and a lot of breeding of plant material so that it lasts longer and tastes less. The other end of the chain doesn't actually seem to have been dealt with, which is from when you buy it to when it's ultimately disposed of. I don't know that an organization like yours can actually impact that. Maybe you can, maybe you can't.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

You probably answered your own question because your time is up.

We'll move now to Ms. Mathyssen for five minutes, please.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Ms. Kagan, for all the information you have brought to the committee.

I want to continue on the notion of packaging and waste. I know there are many different types of plastic. When I go into a store I see a lot of different types.

I understand your remarks with regard to that zip-lock bag that's going to preserve the cheese or whatever, longer, but there are also incredible amounts of packaging used in the big box stores. I don't know if it's because big box stores demand efficiency. They want to have products shipped effectively and display them and make sure they are protected or attractive for the consumer.

I'm coming back to all these plastics and wondering if you look at the different types of plastics because I know some are very difficult to deal with. Some are next to impossible to recycle. From my experience very often these types of plastics end up in energy from waste and produce frightening levels of dioxin.

I know people keep talking about scrubbers and all that sort of thing, but the reality is when these more dangerous types of plastics are incinerated they are reduced to ash that is about one third of the original, which is a lot, and they have to be disposed of as toxic waste.

Does your organization look at, recommend, discuss with manufacturers, with your clients, these different kinds of plastics, and what to avoid and how to do a better job of keeping these quite dangerous plastic products out of the chain?

[Rachel Kagan]

I'm not that familiar with all the different types of plastics. I do know there are hundreds if not thousands. We get involved when a member asks us a specific question of whether or not this type of plastic is recycled and recyclable in all the provinces. I'm familiar with some of the more common plastics. I'm not familiar with any of the toxic sides. We don't work on anything to do with incineration or anything like that.

There is a plastics industry association, and I'd be happy to try to get some information from them on those specific questions. Where we can provide our members with guidance that's verified by another organization we'll provide that, but this does speak to a lack of guidance that manufacturers and those that make packaging decisions can rely on. What is the appropriate packaging to use, not just in what's recycled but other considerations as well?

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you. You have talked a great deal about recycling, and I understand there's a great divergence even from municipality to municipality because some of the smaller municipalities just don't have the expertise. They are local people, and they are trying to manage a corporate entity that has a lot of bits and pieces to it.

Has recovery been discussed? For many years we've heard about the recovery of products so as you say you don't have to keep going back to virgin material. What kind of progress are we making in recovery?

[Rachel Kagan]

Again it's province by province. Off the top of my head, because I'm familiar with the Ontario blue box program, I know last year's diversion rates showed the amount of materials that were recovered and recycled into new materials was 64% of what was in the blue box.

I think Manitoba is around the same. Quebec is probably about the same as well. But there are also different definitions of what's recovery and what's allowed to be recovery.

You mentioned EFW, energy from waste or incineration. Some provinces, mainly out west—I think Alberta has some really good facilities—count that as part of their recovery, and that would probably increase their numbers. Ontario doesn't count that. Again there's a little inconsistency, and each province certainly is entitled to its opinion, but why one province and not another?

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you very much.

We'll move now to Mr. Toet for five minutes.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I think we're all going down the same path, but I do want to continue on with the packaging aspect of things. My sense is that's where industry has the best opportunity. You talk about the regulations on recycling, and the differences from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, as some of the challenges you face. I think what industry does have in its own hands today is the packaging aspect and the ability to package in the most environmentally friendly way. Nobody's telling them today, other than with food products, the type of boxing needed in order to protect that food from contamination, etc. Nobody's telling them what size of box they have to put it in, or what size the product has to be.

Mr. McKay used the example of Apple, but you talk about cereals. I've had the example of cereals where you buy the double-sized box and there are actually two boxes inside the box, rather than just the actual sleeve. I think that's where the industry and your association have the ability to really influence their membership. Is there a plan on the part of your industry to work with your membership on things such as that, to really look at how we can get away from the recycling aspect, which is a little bit out of our control? I'm not suggesting ignoring the recycling aspect completely.

At the front end, which we really can control, are there plans to bring this forward to your membership?

[Rachel Kagan]

It is something that we've been looking at. Right now we're looking at the different members and good examples they've done to reduce packaging or make changes that result in environmental benefit, and trying to collate that to get some best practices together. We certainly will take your point back to our members and work on that more.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I have another example. My wife went with my daughter to buy a camera. They came back with a camera in an inside box that was maybe four or five inches across and about two inches deep. The exterior box that it was in was about 14 inches by six inches by six inches.

My background is in the print industry. Every time I see a food product or a consumer product like over-the-counter pharmaceuticals, I'm always astounded because I know what they're paying for that packaging compared to what they could be paying. The earbuds are one thing where you have a higher-costing product, but when I see $3 or $4 products, and I see that they've probably spent an additional 30¢, 40¢, or 50¢ on their packaging, it always astounds me.

Are there discussions in your group regarding the ability to bring down those costs in a way that still allows them to display their product? It comes back to that question I had earlier on the competitive aspect of it. I still think that plays a large role in why they package the way they package. They're looking for that package to be bigger because it looks like they've got something more substantial. How do you address that now among your competitive businesses so that they would come forward on a common front?

[Rachel Kagan]

I think we need to step back and have a full understanding of the different decisions that go into it. Obviously, we've talked a lot about marketing to consumers, so marketing goes into it. That's an important consideration. In terms of transportation, I would expect, especially with some of those electronic items that are maybe a little more fragile, they have to be protected when they're on the truck, bouncing along. I would imagine there are some logistical reasons covering the business operations of all the different areas.

I think for the food products we need to go back to our members to make sure we have the full picture. A lot of the work that we do has been focused on recycling. We need to understand, obviously, the entire business operations to be able to have that influence. We're seeing it individually. We are seeing good examples of where packaging is optimized, where it's reduced, but I think you're speaking to a couple of other areas that I can't speak to right now because I don't have that fulsome understanding of how those marketing or logistical decisions are being made.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

We have about 20 seconds left, but I let you go over last time, so I'm going to cut you off.

Ms. Freeman for five minutes, please.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

In my riding there's a packaging plant called Emballages Lacroix. It's in St-Placide. They make packaging for hummus and yogourt and cheeses, really familiar packaging. I'm super-proud of the number of jobs it creates in a very rural part of the riding. It's good to have a plant somewhere that's very, very rural and creates jobs where otherwise people wouldn't really be able to find work. The amount of plastic that comes out of there in a day is really shocking. I talked to them and went through the plant, and took in the plastic that was being made new. They said they can't use recyclable materials. That's maybe because they ship across North America, so they ship into the States, too. They can't use recyclable materials for yogourt; they have to use new material. They use recyclable materials for non-food products. They came up with recyclable materials because they were very conscious of the fact that there was a lot of new plastic.

What should the federal government be doing to try and create standardization not just across Canada, but also with the United States? A lot of our out-shipping market is with the States. What can we do to make sure that the reducing and using recyclable materials in food packaging happens? How do we make it so that they can use some recyclable materials? If you can't do that, and they've reduced as much as possible, what can we do to encourage recycling afterwards?

[Rachel Kagan]

I guess there's a couple of opportunities to look at. To encourage recycling one would encourage a change in consumer behaviour, ensuring that they are doing their job at home and source-separating. If we're recycling 60% of the blue box materials, well, what's happening to the other 40%? We're throwing it out? Why? Are we not aware? Do we not have access to a blue box? Which doesn't seem right, since 95% of Ontarians have access to it.

I think the federal government would have a good role to play in delivering a uniform message across the country to recycle where recycling is available.

Now the challenge, of course, is there are different materials and different programs. I'm not sure what the outcome of the committee's study will be. I don't think you know either. Clearly, there is a need for better baseline data for understanding what's being recycled, what's not, and how is it not. Working from the same song sheet and sharing that with the provinces is a good starting point to then have possible discussions about standards or things like that.

I think stepping back first is important. I wouldn't be able to give a definitive answer, but I think the feds have a good opportunity to really get more robust data to make these decisions and have these conversations.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

I was thinking a lot about number 6 plastic, which is not recyclable where I live. I think it's generally not recyclable. It seems like everything is number 6, and a lot of people don't know that number 6 is not recyclable in a lot of places. Do we need more information to get to consumers? I think you already addressed that. Why do those who are packaging love number 6 so much if it's not recyclable? What's the difference? How can we make it recyclable or how can we use recyclable plastics instead?

[Rachel Kagan]

I think there are a few issues there. First of all, as a consumer, a residential homeowner, when I'm at home and I have something plastic, typically, I, along with most people, don't turn it over to look at the number. I'll just put it in the blue box. There's a lack of an understanding and awareness there.

I think, again, it would be helpful, not to belabour the data point, to know how much of that is out there. How big a problem is it? If there is a huge move to be using number 6, then, are there opportunities to develop the infrastructure needed to recycle it or do we have a push to get it out of there and try to promote a different type of material?

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you very much.

We were a bit late starting.

I'm going to go to Mr. Woodworth for about three minutes and that will be the end of our questions.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Kagan.

I'm not going to have time to ask you all that I would like but I'll introduce the question and see if I can get you to do some homework for me.

I'm concerned, particularly on the question of packaging, that we do not reinvent the wheel. I'm aware that in October 2009, the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment issued a document titled “A Canada-wide Strategy for Sustainable Packaging”.

First of all, are you familiar with that document?