Environment Committee on Oct. 20th, 2014

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

I want to focus on the environmental benefits of recycling. I want to start with an example. If there's a coal-fired plant that emitted sulphur dioxide and the laws were changed so they had to put scrubbers in, sulphur dioxides were removed, then acid rain declines, air quality improves, and that's a clear environmental result of that action.

What is the clear environmental result, in a quantitative fashion, of all of the recycling programs that have been going on for the last 20-odd years?

[Rachel Kagan]

The clear environmental result, just to start on the qualitative, would be not having to use virgin materials, not having to go back to the earth's resources whether it's oil for plastic, things like that, and just using recycled materials over and over again in making new materials.

In terms of quantitative, I'd have to take a look at the historical performance of recycling programs across Canada and get back to you. I don't have a clear number for you. This does speak to the need for better data because we're not able to provide what is Canada's performance in recycling. The numbers that exist now are not complete, and it does depend. The blue box in Ontario is just for blue box materials. It's not for total recycling. In Ontario we recycle tires and electronics. Many other provinces also have many of those programs. We'd have to quantify all that and get back to you.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Your answer implies that all resource extraction and development is at an environmental cost. I strongly dispute that, and I think we can quantify that. For example, in pulp and paper mills there are often de-inking plants to recover used paper, and those de-inking plants, as you know, use some pretty noxious chemicals. We have to be very careful when we work out what's an environmental benefit and what isn't.

Many of your members compete with each other. One of the ways that they sell their products and compete with their competitors is through perhaps attractive packaging or different marketing programs and so on. How do you overcome the competitive pressures between your members, who may all have the same goals for waste reduction but are competing with each other for increased sales?

[Rachel Kagan]

Maybe five, six, or seven years ago there was more competition in this regard. But I think there was a shift in thought several years ago, starting with a couple of the leading retailers and manufacturers that recognized environmental sustainability wasn't something to have a competitive advantage on; rather it was something to share with each other.

Some very large retailers were sharing everything they were doing with water, energy, and recycling very openly with each other. Quite a few large manufacturers were also doing the same thing. We're seeing that more and more. I don't believe they view it as a competitive advantage, because environmental sustainability shouldn't be a competitive advantage. We all need to do our part, quite honestly.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Getting back to the idea of the environmental benefit, one of the things that advocates of recycling, of waste diversion programs, talk about is the use of land for landfills. Do you have any notion of the extent of the landfills in Canada in terms of square kilometres or hectares, and of the trends in landfill expansion and use over the next few decades?

[Rachel Kagan]

Unfortunately, I don't have that information, but I can try to get it and follow up with the committee later.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

You have another minute, if you want.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

I've pretty well used up all my questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Mr. Toet.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I would like to pick up on Mr. Sopuck's questioning. You talked about the fact that environmental sustainability should not be a competitive advantage. I was very intrigued by that statement.

I understand the fact of sharing of best practices. But I think what Mr. Sopuck was getting at was that you have competitors in bringing a product to market. They're trying to not only look at environmental sustainability but also look at how to make their product on the shelf, compared with their competitor's product, be the one the consumer wants to pick up. That will be part of the role in this whole...especially in reducing packaging. Is real sharing happening among your membership, even in those kinds of ways?

[Rachel Kagan]

Yes. At FCPC we have a lot of member committees where we join together and share information, but nothing in terms of competitive information or anything like that. There is transparency in what members are doing to change their packaging, to reduce it. There have been some good examples from certain manufacturers that invited other manufacturers to join them in their use of plant-based material packaging.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

We'll come back to Mr. Toet in another round. We'll now have to move on to Mr. McKay, to keep things relatively non-competitive and equitable.

Mr. McKay.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I thought Mr. Sopuck was going to share his extra time with me, but apparently—

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

I was going to.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

In a strange sort of way, Mr. Sopuck and I are interested in the same question. For me, maybe it will be easier to do it as an example. Is Apple a member of your organization?

[Rachel Kagan]

No, Apple is not. I believe it's a member of Electronics Product Stewardship Canada.

Our members are only food and consumer product companies, companies such as Heinz, Frito-Lay, Unilever, and Pepsi.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I thought Apple produced consumer products.

[Rachel Kagan]

Consumer products would be things like shampoo, soap, and toothpaste. Apple is electronics.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

The reason I ask is that the Ontario government has been on a campaign—rightly so, in my judgment—about distracted driving, so I bought some earbuds. These are stunning. They're gorgeous earbuds. The packaging is fabulous. It's an art form. And it's entirely consistent with Steve Jobs's view of consumer consumption, which is that the consumer has to pick it up and say “wow” and want to feel it and identify with it rather than it being simply a piece of technology.

I was shocked at how much absolute waste, junk, was associated with a pair of earbuds. Until somebody solves that, all we're going to do is sit around, wring our hands, and say it's a really bad thing to do.

I'd like to know what you or your organization, or any other organization, is going to do to get after Apple? They are, in some respects, the extreme example of utterly wasteful packaging for what, I would say, is a relatively good product.

[Rachel Kagan]

That's a fair point. Certainly in conversations with family and friends the topics of packaging and wasteful packaging comes up a lot. Obviously, it does with you too.

I would encourage you to somehow share your thoughts directly with Apple. I know they have an environmental team—

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Steve Jobs will sit up from his grave and say, “I got a letter from John McKay”.

The second question—and maybe you've already answered it—had to do with pharmaceutical products. Do any of your members deal with pharmaceutical packaging?

[Rachel Kagan]

Again, there's another industry association for pharmaceutical products. We do have a few members who sell one or two. Again, the issues would be common across the board in terms of balancing, complying with the various packaging recycling programs in Canada, but also looking more broadly at packaging as a whole so it does take a balanced approach. What we're trying to say is that recyclability shouldn't be the be-all and end-all.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I have no idea why it's a balanced approach to buy a container that's this big for content that's this big. How is that balanced? The rest is stuffed with cotton-ball stuff. How is that balanced?

[Rachel Kagan]

When I said balanced I meant that in terms of our members who are looking to make changes to their packaging. Often they're going to be looking across the board and asking what materials are recyclable across all of Canada. They'll ask us that, and we're not able to provide a straightforward answer because this province accepts this, this one doesn't; this municipality accepts this material and this one doesn't. I just meant balancing the need for recyclable materials with the other considerations as well.

As for pharmaceutical products, again it's a good question. I can't speak on their behalf. I would imagine that a lot of it has to do with the information that's outside on the package and inside as well for directions for use and things like that.