Evidence of meeting #56 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ccme.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

J. Michael Miltenberger  Minister, Finance and Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories
Don Fox  Co-Chair, Water Management Committee, Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Okay, $60 million.

Am I right to say that it's $1.8 billion overall?

9:30 a.m.

Minister, Finance and Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Okay, thank you.

What's the revenue to the government for fracking wells?

9:30 a.m.

Minister, Finance and Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

Right now, none, because we don't have any active exploration going on.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Have any of the licences been granted? You talked about licence A and licence B. Have any licences been granted?

9:30 a.m.

Minister, Finance and Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

There have been to Conoco and Husky, but with the drop in oil prices a lot of plans were reviewed. There were some licences, but the business decision has been not to proceed.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

So the licences are outstanding, but at this point nothing is actually happening in the NWT.

9:30 a.m.

Minister, Finance and Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

No. I mean we're continuing to do work. We're going to change the regulations and we want to institute best practices. We're working on the groundwater. We're working on a lot of environmental and wildlife issues, making sure that we have our thinking clear because there is a lot of concern in the public about the fracking, even though there's none here. But we see what's going on all around us and to the south of us, so we're doing the work necessary to make sure that we can provide that assurance to our constituents that if and when the oil industry turns around, fracking can be managed in a way that minimizes the risk.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

It's a pretty serious issue for the chemical soup that seems to be going into these things.

I'm pleased to hear that you're reviewing your regulations. One of the issues has been the claim by various companies to proprietary protection for the mix of chemicals that go into the fracking hole. Will your regulations assert any jurisdiction over the proprietary mix?

9:30 a.m.

Minister, Finance and Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

We are doing everything we can to ensure that there's full disclosure. I've met with the oil companies along with other ministers and raised the issue that we're going insist on that. There's not a large pushback from the industry or the folks who were around the table. They know it's a reality that if they want to get the social licence, they've got to be prepared to disclose. We want to know—and so do the people—what's going into the ground. So as we're doing our consultation, I know that's one of the big discussion items.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Mr. Fox, as a kind of a national representative here and having what appears to be extensive experience with the Council of Ministers, can you tell us if this subject matter is under discussion by the Council of Ministers?

May 14th, 2015 / 9:30 a.m.

Co-Chair, Water Management Committee, Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment

Don Fox

Absolutely, yes. We brainstorm through the year about what the national priorities are and what projects we can work on. For example, oil sands development, fracking, or some specific type of mining are all issues that perhaps need something developed. For example, we have looked at the last three years or so, specifically with our colleagues in Quebec, who did a lot of work and contributed it to the CCME, the types of water quality guidelines that might be needed for the chemicals used in the shale gas industry. So the short answer is yes.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Again, I'm encouraged to hear that. I would hope that the Council of Ministers of the Environment, either provincially or in cooperation with the federal government, moves that up to kind of a regulatory framework, because this is an industry that's coming on full steam in spite of the current downturn of the market.

Now New Brunswick took the decision, I believe—correct me if I'm wrong—to impose a moratorium. What went into that thinking?

9:35 a.m.

Co-Chair, Water Management Committee, Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment

Don Fox

I'm not really the person to have that discussion with. I can sort of give you generalities. Right now there's even debate as to whether the word “moratorium” is appropriate. But certainly there's a thought that we need to reflect on some items before this industry goes full steam ahead.

For example, we need research. For example, we need more contact with local folks. The terminology they're using is “social licence”. New Brunswick has decided to go down the road of doing that legwork upfront. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but there's currently a group of researchers who are involved doing research behind the scenes on very specific things—for example groundwater, chemistry, environmental flow needs—and that work is currently ongoing.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Is that the Canadian Council of Academies?

9:35 a.m.

Co-Chair, Water Management Committee, Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment

Don Fox

There is an association there, and there was some work going on there, but there's specific work to New Brunswick as well.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

I was reading that report. It says that it's difficult to monitor whether or not the wells are leaking fluid into the ground or releasing GHGs into the atmosphere. It also notes that between one-quarter and one-half of fluid used in fracking returns to the surface, resulting in wastewater management problems, and encourages the development of a regulatory environment.

I assume that the chair is going to give me the high sign fairly shortly. It's not a great insight to say that water flows, but this seems to be an issue that cries out for national treatment, because water flows over boundaries, doesn't respect basins, and goes wherever it wishes to go. I'd like to know at what level the federal government is taking in developing a regulatory regime for fracking.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

I think that's probably a question that's beyond our current.... The federal government—

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

No, I think he's just swallowing right now.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

Can you please give a quick response, Dr. Fox.

9:35 a.m.

Co-Chair, Water Management Committee, Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment

Don Fox

The only thing I can leave you with is from a science perspective, from an engineering perspective. Anything that we could develop at the water management committee that could be used by regulatory folks, we're happy to go into that discussion, put together the team, and actually develop those tools.

Was that a good answer?

9:35 a.m.

Minister, Finance and Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

Mr. Chairman, may I just add a quick comment since I sit on the CCME as a minister?

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

If you're responding to Mr. McKay, we'll absolutely give you 25 seconds.

9:35 a.m.

Minister, Finance and Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

Thank you.

I just want to point out the function of the CCME and the frustration. I've now been an environment minister for nine years. We meet once a year for a day, chaired by the federal government, and it's very, very difficult. I sit on a number of these other kinds of boards—forestry and resource development—and we meet once a year. You bring all the jurisdictions together; it's very difficult in one day. There's no follow-up. There are no calls during the year. There are all these subgroups that Dr. Fox talks about. But the political reality is that it's very difficult to do meaningful work in that amount of time. The last meeting we had was the first time we had got agreement around the table to actually mention the words “climate change” in a press release. It's a kind of success; that's how we measure success. We're doing stuff on producer responsibility for packaging. There's all this background work, on other water things, that rarely hits the ministerial table.

CCME has a role, but we have fragmented the environment into so many small pieces that it's very, very difficult to do the things you and your members are talking about—fracking water across all its various areas that are impacted across departments, and those types of things.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger.

Mr. Choquette, please, for five minutes.