Evidence of meeting #60 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was holcim.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Greg Zilberbrant  Manager, Environment and Corporate Social Responsibility, Holcim Canada Inc.
Mary Jane Patterson  Executive Director, REEP Green Solutions

9:15 a.m.

NDP

Hélène LeBlanc NDP LaSalle—Émard, QC

You talked about incentives, but how could the federal government provide those?

I'm not talking here about a brief program or project that would disappear after two or three years, but about a more official initiative centred on this type of product. If I understand correctly, this could reduce the risk of flooding, or the overflow of municipal wastewaters. If there were a certification or an incentive, this could encourage entrepreneurs to use the product.

9:15 a.m.

Manager, Environment and Corporate Social Responsibility, Holcim Canada Inc.

Greg Zilberbrant

I think with something like LEED, there is the opportunity to include these types of materials. It really then becomes a matter of how that procurement process occurs and initially, even at the federal government level, how buildings and roadways are built, when you're dealing with structures and lands that are owned by the federal government, and a matter of having initiatives to actually incorporate these materials as the norm for structures and for roadways. That incentive may come in the form of something for early adopters, in the same way ecoENERGY works to give that incentive.

I can speak to some municipalities that are looking at taxing stormwater management. Mississauga, for example, is coming forward with an increased tax on impervious surfaces. It's a disincentive in a way, but at the same time it is an incentive in that if you're looking at new construction, you'll put in pervious surfaces to reduce your long-term tax bill. So there is the opportunity.

9:15 a.m.

NDP

Hélène LeBlanc NDP LaSalle—Émard, QC

That is a very good idea. The federal government has an enormous number of buildings, enormous infrastructure. It could as you said be one of the first users. It could lead by example by adopting this type of technology, which is really focused on adapting to climate change. I think that is interesting.

In addition, there is the Quebec Fonds vert, the Green Fund. That plan provides funds to companies and industries. It applies to industries at this time. Could you tell me how the Green Fund allows companies to innovate while lowering their energy costs and costs of production? How could a bill, or a program like the Quebec Green Fund, be an incentive for companies to innovate, in partnership with government?

9:20 a.m.

Manager, Environment and Corporate Social Responsibility, Holcim Canada Inc.

Greg Zilberbrant

I won't speak in detail about the green plan, because I don't know it in detail. I will speak to the concept of early adoption and innovation. I think this is a challenge, especially for larger companies.

There are many new innovative technologies coming forward from small companies that are looking to us as a partner to showcase them in the same way I described the federal government taking a leadership role by using certain building materials. These companies may be technology companies that are looking for a partner to demonstrate that.

I think that along with having the support of the federal government, the not-for-profit sector has an important role in helping those new technologies to be vetted in a such way that when a large company decides there is an opportunity to test something, it have a bit more certainty.

9:20 a.m.

NDP

Hélène LeBlanc NDP LaSalle—Émard, QC

Very well, thank you very much.

Ms. Patterson...

Is that all?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

I'm sorry, but your time is up.

We'll move now to Mrs. Ambler for seven minutes.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

Thank you very much to both of you for being here today and providing us such rich and interesting material for our study. I thank you for the work that your organizations do in protecting Canada's rich natural heritage.

Greg, thank you for being here from Mississauga today and for all the good work that Holcim does in this area.

I'd like to ask you a very general question, if I might, about how Holcim started down this path. I love your title, which is manager of environment and corporate social responsibility. Has Holcim always had someone in your position?

I'm asking partly because Holcim is obviously a large company. Ms. Patterson's organization works with small and medium-sized enterprises. I'm wondering how a company might get started down the path of working for their environment, helping their environment, and taking on these projects. How did Holcim get started and why did they get started down this path?

9:20 a.m.

Manager, Environment and Corporate Social Responsibility, Holcim Canada Inc.

Greg Zilberbrant

Thank you, Ms. Ambler, for the question. And thanks again, I do have to say, for the support from the Government of Canada for the Credit Valley Conservation and Holcim partnership for this nine acres of land that we'll be rehabilitating.

It's an excellent question. I think we're seeing more and more large companies like Holcim going down the sustainability path. As a global company based out of Switzerland, Holcim's venture into this is decades old. Really it's been adopted around the world, the understanding that sustainable business is good business. We don't hide behind our borders. We don't hide behind our fences and the security we have around our properties. We are very open to the community. We're very transparent. We have that trust built that allows us to really be a good corporate citizen for the benefit of the community and of us and our employees.

As to how a company like this would get started, or would go down that road, really a part of it is Holcim's mentality and view of sustainability as being a critical part of the sustainability of our business, with that triple bottom line of the environmental, the social, and absolutely the economic. We need to be sustainable. We need to be an environmentally and socially responsible business to be economically viable. None of those aspects are mutually exclusive in the world we operate in.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

That in fact is what we've been hearing from other witnesses as well. I think it's good for Canadians to know that helping the environment, being responsible in that regard, doesn't have to affect your bottom line, and in fact can improve it. Thanks for making that point.

You mentioned the habitat stewardship program for species at risk and the announcement we were able to make together just a few weeks ago. Again, on the part of the Government of Canada, this is a $104,000 natural enhancement project having to do with stopover for migratory birds.

Now, one might think that cement and concrete don't have very much to do with migratory birds. Why this project for Holcim? What's the benefit? Please help us understand the “why” aspects. Why did Holcim choose this and why is it important to you? I think it's fairly obvious why it's important to the community, but why is it important to Holcim?

9:25 a.m.

Manager, Environment and Corporate Social Responsibility, Holcim Canada Inc.

Greg Zilberbrant

Thank you for that.

I think the concept of a corporation is the fact that we are made of people. We are made of individuals who have children and who will have grandchildren. I don't have any yet, obviously—you can see me on the video conference there. But when we look at generations to come, I think these are things that resonate with our employees. They resonate even within our own walls.

We looked at what we could do as a company in providing the materials and what we could do within our own borders with the capacity we have. We realize that we're a very large landowner with our aggregates operations and our cement operations. With the partnership we have with the Credit Valley Conservation Authority, that openness and that discussion helped them identify for us that this is really an opportunity for us that has no negative impact on our business. It's a piece of property that we're not using currently and that we don't see being used in the future.

It's an opportunity to do something meaningful, with their support and with the Government of Canada's support, and really the support of our employees, as Ms. Patterson mentioned. The pride of our employees to be there and be part of this is absolutely stellar. They're more excited about this than many other projects we have that are business-related. It's fantastic.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

Isn't that nice. That's great to hear. I think the fact that you engaged the local community as well is admirable. I'd like to thank you for that.

I'd like to hear more about the community advisory panels. Can you tell us who's on them? Does Credit Valley Conservation, for example, take part in these panels? Are ordinary folks from the community on the panels, or are they made up of experts in business only? Maybe you could tell us about those.

9:25 a.m.

Manager, Environment and Corporate Social Responsibility, Holcim Canada Inc.

Greg Zilberbrant

Sure. We have our community advisory panels at every major site Holcim Canada operates. What we do is that we invite stakeholders from the community to join us. It's really made up of individuals. We do have some representatives of not-for-profits or government organizations, but really it is the ratepayers or the representatives of different community groups that sit there.

The intent of that is that on a quarterly basis we meet as a group and really communicate what is happening with our operation, what is happening with our business, what is happening with our industry in general, the direction that we're moving, the projects we have that are moving forward, and we also hear back from the community as to what's important to them and what they see as important in terms of dialogue and having that face time. Again, that's similar to the relationship aspect that we have with other organizations, so that if they have a concern, if they have an issue, if they have a question, they really have individuals they can go to whom they've met face to face. It's not just business cards. They understand us. They know us, and they're able to reach out and ask those questions.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

Thanks, Greg.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

Thank you, Mrs. Ambler.

Now to Mr. McKay, please, for seven minutes.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Thank you, Chair. Thank you to you both.

Ms. Patterson, it's good to see you again. I was quite impressed with your presentation in Cambridge and even more impressed now. What caught my attention was your three-legged stool analogy: that the NGOs seem to be willing, the industry writ large seems to be willing, but the government doesn't seem to be prepared to actually put money on the table. My question is about your comment that whereas you were doing 100 evaluations a month, it's now down to 100 a year.

In your world, what would you see as an active role on the part of the federal government to get involved once again in the energy audit business?

9:30 a.m.

Executive Director, REEP Green Solutions

Mary Jane Patterson

Thank you for the question.

I'd see it starting with a comprehensive climate action plan for Canada that includes the residential sector and specific actions and incentives. It would include a financial incentive to homeowners to make energy retrofits, founded on an energy audit, a third party professional audit to benchmark the starting point and verify the results afterwards.

That allows us to count and measure the impact that we're having as a country and it motivates action. I think the beauty of something like that is that it can be a core, a foundation, and then provinces can add to that, utilities can add to that, and non-profits and private sector groups can add to that. We can all build on that core foundation and make it more. We can strengthen it.

June 9th, 2015 / 9:30 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Thank you very much.

Mr. Zilberbrant, you are in an energy-intensive business. One way or another, whether the government likes it or not, carbon emissions are going to be priced.

I'd be interested in your views as to where your company is on the issue of GHG emissions because I think in some respects your company, as you describe it, is possibly on the leading edge of environmental sustainability and thinking around these areas. The preference of all governments, whether they're municipal, provincial, or federal, is to see that a company that is on the leading edge of environmental sustainability, particularly with respect to GHG emissions, gets rewarded. I'd be interested in your thinking as to where Holcim Canada is on this.

9:30 a.m.

Manager, Environment and Corporate Social Responsibility, Holcim Canada Inc.

Greg Zilberbrant

Thank you for the question. You're absolutely right, Mr. McKay. We are an energy-intensive business, and carbon pricing will come into some sort of form for us and it will impact our business.

I think it comes back to the role of government to create that even playing field so that those corporations or those industries that are the leading edge are obviously not being, I don't want to say punished...but that they are rewarded accordingly as you accurately said. Moving forward, as we see this, the adoption of technology and the opportunity to even further reduce our carbon footprint and to look into innovative companies or leading companies to try to adopt new technology is a critical part. The other aspect of it is ensuring that there is an even playing field across the domestic sector, as well as the foreign sector.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Has anybody from the federal government or any entity representing the federal government come to you, as a leader in the industry, and asked you for your opinion as to how carbon should be priced and what credits you as an industry leader should be getting for the innovations you are undertaking, which right now are on your own dime?

9:30 a.m.

Manager, Environment and Corporate Social Responsibility, Holcim Canada Inc.

Greg Zilberbrant

We've had those discussions—not necessarily me personally—for some time with the federal and provincial governments. We are very involved with it directly, as well as through the Cement Association of Canada. There is absolutely a dialogue that is taking place.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

I understood that concrete as a road is far more energy efficient than pavement as a road. Is that correct?

9:35 a.m.

Manager, Environment and Corporate Social Responsibility, Holcim Canada Inc.

Greg Zilberbrant

That is correct. Studies have shown that the concrete, being an inflexible pavement, actually does improve fuel efficiency.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

When the toing and froing is going on for credit on something like that, how will it work for an industry like yours?

9:35 a.m.

Manager, Environment and Corporate Social Responsibility, Holcim Canada Inc.

Greg Zilberbrant

I think this is the question of how these instruments are implemented for their direct versus indirect benefits, or even not “versus” but with the inclusion of indirect benefits that are associated with a material. This doesn't just affect roadways. I mentioned that some studies do show that, but also, significant numbers of studies show that concrete as a product in buildings has a significant benefit in terms of heat loss and cooling loss. The building envelope is actually better.

I think that framework and how those benefits or those credits can be applied is really an important discussion to ensure that the materials are properly selected. Perhaps it is at the policy level to put forward which ones are Energy Star, for lack of a better term, if that's what they're being called, or “Greenhouse Gas Star”, or whatever the program might be, and actually making those selections based on those benefits, beyond the manufacturing aspect.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

I have a final question. There are basically three options on the table: a carbon tax, cap and trade, or a fee and dividend. Well, I suppose you could put “energy-intensive industry”—