Environment Committee on April 14th, 2016

[Julie Gelfand]

No.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Okay.

[Julie Gelfand]

Not off the top of my head.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Okay.

Do you know how they were selected or why?

[Julie Gelfand]

We have to go through all 26 departments on a cyclical basis, so we're picking four or five at a time.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Randomly, or did you specifically look for four that—

[Julie Gelfand]

They're random. I know Agriculture was in there for sure.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Veterans Affairs...?

[Julie Gelfand]

That's good, Veterans Affairs, Heritage.... We're missing one, and I'm in four or five right now.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Okay, thank you.

My next question is for Mr. Boyd.

When we were hearing from Mr. Linklater and Mr. Botham, they were talking about greening our operations and the sufficiency of that, and I kind of saw you shaking your head. Do you have a comment that you want to provide on that?

[Dr. David Boyd]

Yes, there are two things.

First, my colleagues and I at the University of British Columbia have tried to get data on what the Government of Canada's greenhouse gas emissions are, and we are having an extraordinarily difficult time getting that basic data. If we don't have that information, how can we know whether we're moving in the right direction?

The second thing that I was troubled by was the comments about the draft 2016-19 federal sustainable development strategy, which you would think we would actually be improving as the years went by. Let me tell you frankly, it's a disaster. It has these five long-term aspirational goals, which aren't long term, which aren't aspirational, and which aren't goals. It has over 50 targets, very few of which meet the SMART criteria I described earlier. There's no measurability in many of the targets. Finally, the strategies included within the strategy for how we're going to meet those targets are nothing but a repetition of generic statements.

I went through and I actually searched. I found phrases that I thought I'd read before and, for example, I found 17 paragraphs repeated, identical paragraphs in the strategy about how voluntary measures could be used to achieve environmental goals, yada, yada. There were 15 paragraphs about the importance of education that were just cut and pasted. What we have is a really poor-quality strategy, which is because the act isn't providing sufficient guidance as to what needs to be in that strategy.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Turning to that idea of changing the strategy so that we can strengthen it—and I appreciate your submission and the 10 recommendations that you've given—how do we ensure accountability in them? What are the enforcement mechanisms so that we just don't end up at the same place again?

[Dr. David Boyd]

If you accept my recommendations—for example, having targets that have to meet those SMART criteria—then there's actually two mechanisms that could take place.

One is that the commissioner could be empowered to say, “These targets do not meet the criteria; there's no measurability here. I won't be able to actually measure progress towards achieving the target.” My recommendation is that if the commissioner says that, then the strategy itself should go back to the government to be revised until it meets with the commissioner's approval. Basically, it's giving her the power to approve the strategy.

Secondly, if the law requires measurable targets and the targets aren't measurable at the end of the day, then you could have citizens holding the government to account for failing to comply with the mandatory requirements of the law.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Back to the PCO for a second. Do you sense there are silos between the different departments? Do you see things operating fluently?

[Les Linklater]

Do you mean in terms of the environmental considerations in particular?

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Yes, do you find that everybody is working in sync, or is it more in silos?

[Les Linklater]

Generally, I think the level of collaboration across departments is quite good. I would add that in terms of establishing the cabinet committee on the environment, climate change, and energy, key departments that are involved in those high-profile files, which will clearly have a direct impact on the environment and on sustainability, are now being pushed more to work together more closely given that the ministers are around the table together more often and making linkages between the various priorities they're bringing forward as per their mandate letters.

You'll also notice, through the mandate letters that have been made public, it's very clear that on a number of key priorities the expectation is that ministers are collaborating, in particular for the upcoming review of the environmental assessment legislation.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

The directive is happening because the particular ministers at this particular point in time happen to be working well together.

[Les Linklater]

I think that's part of it, where the directive is working well. I would say that in terms of the role that PCO can play, there is a more robust role that we can play to ensure that departments are looking at this. Even if through the initial scan they are determining an SEA isn't required, that's referenced in the cabinet document. We're creating more of a record and providing more assistance to the commissioner as she's doing her audit work.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

It would be nice to see that more entrenched, so you're not relying so much on that goodwill desire. If it's something that we're going to take seriously, it should be more entrenched.

[Les Linklater]

In fact, with regard to our own internal processes, we're looking at what kinds of mechanisms we can put in place centrally that will track things that cut across where we are expecting departments to take a view of the directives, including not only SEAs but gender-based analysis, official languages, and so on.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Thank you very much for that line of questioning. I have my eye on that new cabinet committee on agenda, results, and communications, chaired by the Prime Minister. There are all sorts of opportunities here.

Mr. Fast.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you.

A number of witnesses have suggested that the responsibility for the federal sustainable development strategy be housed in a central agency. I believe, Ms. Gelfand, you have suggested that the administration of the act and ultimate responsibility for the act be housed—

[Julie Gelfand]

I don't think I've said it, but other people have said it.