Evidence of meeting #11 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pricing.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Daniel Watson  Chief Executive Officer, Parks Canada Agency
Michael Martin  Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
Ron Hallman  President, Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair (Mrs. Deborah Schulte (King—Vaughan, Lib.)) Liberal Deb Schulte

Welcome to our committee meeting, everybody. We are delighted to have Minister McKenna with us today.

Minister McKenna, thank you very much for joining us today, with your staff. With you today are: from the Department of the Environment, Michael Martin, the deputy minister; from the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency, Ron Hallman, president; and from the Parks Canada Agency, Daniel Watson, the chief executive officer.

Thank you very much for being with us today. We are very delighted to have you with us, Minister.

On what we're going to be doing today, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we have a briefing by the Minister of the Environment and Climate Change on her mandate letter. Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), we have the main estimates 2016-17: vote 1 under the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency; votes 1, 5, and 10 under Environment; and votes 1 and 5 under the Parks Canada Agency, as referred to the committee on Tuesday, February 23, 2016. We also have, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), a study of the subject matter of supplementary estimates (C) 2015-16, votes 1c and 10c under Environment, and vote 1c under the Parks Canada Agency.

There's a lot in front of us today.

Thank you very much for joining us. I know that everybody's very anxious to get started

You have the floor.

April 19th, 2016 / 11:05 a.m.

Ottawa Centre Ontario

Liberal

Catherine McKenna LiberalMinister of Environment and Climate Change

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Members of the committee, dear colleagues, I am obviously honoured to be here today with you for my first committee appearance as Minister of Environment and Climate Change.

I am delighted to tell you about the important work we have done since my appointment and explain the priorities of my mandate.

We are also here to present the 2016-2017 main estimates for Environment and Climate Change Canada, as well as for the two agencies under my responsibility: the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency and Parks Canada.

As you know, we have very hard-working public servants, and I'm delighted to be joined by three of them today. With me are Michael Martin, the deputy minister of Environment and Climate Change Canada; Ron Hallman, president of the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency; and Daniel Watson, chief executive officer of the Parks Canada Agency.

They work very hard. I really do appreciate all the support they and their staff provide me. They will assist me in answering your questions, which I'm sure will be very interesting.

On a personal note, and as many of you know, I'm the mother of three young children. I entered politics to make the world a better place for them, our fellow citizens, and our country. That is why I was particularly delighted when the Prime Minister asked me to work on the issue of climate change, because in my view there is no greater challenge for our generation.

Madam Chair, as you are aware, my mandate letter is extensive, so today I'd like to focus my comments on three key areas: addressing climate change at home and with our international partners; the review of our environmental assessment process; and the accessibility and expansion of our national parks and marine conservation areas.

On climate change, first I'd like to highlight some of the key ways in which we have, in just five months, demonstrated our commitment to the environment and to fulfilling Canada's role in tackling climate change. Let's start with Paris.

Canada went to the Paris conference with broad ambitions and great determination.

We pushed for an ambitious and balanced agreement where every country will take concrete measures to limit the increase in the global mean temperature to well under 2 degrees Celsius and make efforts to limit the increase to 1.5 degrees.

My team succeeded in getting key results in the negotiations, notably the inclusion in the final agreement of language recognizing the rights of indigenous peoples internationally, and the text on the markets, which I personally helped negotiate.

We also announced $2.65 billion to help the world’s most vulnerable populations address climate change.

It was heartwarming to see nearly 200 countries come together in good faith to take action on climate change, but we all know that the agreement was just the beginning. The real work must take place in every country, at every level.

In that regard, I am happy to report that we have made tremendous progress on the bilateral stage. Just over a month ago, President Obama and Prime Minister Trudeau affirmed their common vision of a prosperous and sustainable North American economy. They both see the Paris agreement as a turning point. Our countries will sign the agreement this Friday in New York City, on Earth Day, along with at least 150 nations from around the world.

In Washington our leaders adopted a joint Canada-U.S. declaration. Among several important measures, it commits us to reducing methane from the oil and gas sector by 40% to 45%. That would be like taking every single car off the road in Ontario and Quebec. Taking this action on methane, which is 25 times more potent than carbon dioxide, is one of the most cost-effective ways to reduce emissions overall. Our objective is to publish new regulations in 2017.

We also took action to align our regulatory standards on emissions from heavy-duty vehicles, as well as to work to phase out HFCs. These are important measures to make it easier to do business in our integrated economies. Just last week, Canada and the U.S. were proud to endorse the World Bank initiative, zero routine flaring by 2030, to address the environmental and energy security impacts of oil and gas flaring.

Canada has committed to working with the U.S. and with the International Civil Aviation Organization to reduce emissions from international air travel and transportation. We're also focusing our efforts on the continental front by working with the United States and Mexico on an ambitious North American clean energy and environment agreement. Together we want to maintain a consistent set of shared environmental values on our continent, including creating a level playing field for business.

It goes without saying that our efforts to be a constructive partner on the international scene were matched—and even surpassed—by our efforts here in Canada.

Madam Chair, I am certain you will agree with me when I say that, in order to meet the challenge of climate change, we need a shared vision and collective solutions. It is with this goal in mind that the government is working closely with the provinces and territories and with Canada's indigenous peoples.

In March, first ministers adopted the Vancouver declaration, and announced the creation of four working groups that will make recommendations on clean technology, innovation and jobs, carbon pricing, specific mitigation opportunities, and adaptation and climate resilience. Their reports will be considered by the first ministers in October 2016 and will be used to develop the pan-Canadian framework for clean growth in climate change.

It is only by working together that we will enable our country to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, while building a stronger, more resilient low carbon economy that provides good jobs and great opportunities for all Canadians.

Budget 2016 made significant investments to support these objectives. This is the greenest budget in Canada's history. Throughout the budget we see measures to support clean economic growth. This is an important recognition of the imperatives that reach through to the heart of our economy and well-being. We will support climate change mitigation and adaptation through investments in green infrastructure, public transit, and energy efficient social infrastructure.

The $5-billion investment in green infrastructure means cleaner water for Canadians as we modernize our waste water and waste water infrastructure.

It also means helping Canadians lower their energy bills by delivering energy efficiency programs to retrofit buildings and developing building codes that include requirements for climate resiliency.

We are also putting $3.4 billion over three years into public transit to lower emissions and help improve the quality of life.

Starting in 2017-18, over two years, we'll invest a further $125 million to enhance the green municipal fund, which supports innovative green infrastructure ideas for cities and towns across the country.

We will work together with the provinces and territories on how best to lever federal investments in the $2-billion low carbon economy fund to realize incremental emission reductions.

We will advance the electrification of vehicle transportation in collaboration with provinces and territories. We will foster dialogue in the development of regional plans for clean electricity transmission to reduce emissions.

As part of Canada's Participation in Emission Innovation, we will double investments in clean energy, research, and development over five years and work with global partners to promote cleaner energy and better environmental outcomes.

We will advance efforts to eliminate the dependence on diesel in indigenous, remote, and northern communities and use renewable, clean energy as a replacement.

Finally, we will invest more than $1 billion over four years starting in 2017-18 to support clean technology and innovation in the forestry, fisheries, mining, energy, and agriculture sectors that employ so many Canadians in different regions of our country.

Engaging Canadians on our plans and efforts to address climate change is something I view as essential. My department is developing an engagement strategy so that all Canadians from coast to coast to coast can take part in our efforts to create a climate-smart economy and country.

In fact, I'm delighted to announce that this coming Thursday we will launch an interactive website to collect Canadian views and smart solutions on how to fight climate change. Not only will all Canadians be able to feed their suggestions directly to the government; all suggestions received will be immediately published online in full. We hope citizens will be inspired by the ideas of their friends and neighbours.

The website will also offer Canadians the tools they need to hold town halls to engage their communities from the grassroots. I encourage all of you around this table to join the conversation online and be part of the solution, by making your suggestions or by hosting a town hall on climate change and clean growth in your communities.

I would also like to point out that on February 26 I launched a public consultation period for Canada's draft federal sustainable development strategy for 2016-19, and I look forward to the committee members' suggestions to help improve it.

In terms of the 2016-17 main estimates for Environment and Climate Change Canada, planned spending will be $902.1 million. The decreases in the reference levels of some programs are mostly due to funding sunsetting on March 31, 2016. Renewed and additional funding was announced in budget 2016. The details of those specific announcements will be proposed in supplementary estimates for consideration by the committee this year.

Madam Chair, I would now like to turn to the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency, which is also within my portfolio.

The government's priority is to rebuild the confidence of Canadians in environmental assessments. That is the only way to get resources to market responsibly in the 21st century. To accomplish this, we need a process that fully accounts for the many environmental, social, and economic considerations surrounding new projects and for the concerns of Canadians. We want to make sure that environmental assessment decisions are based on science, facts, and evidence and serve the public interest. Also, we need to work in partnership with indigenous peoples to ensure that their rights and interests are respected.

The review of the environmental assessment process will take time. That is why we have put in place interim principles to guide the assessment of major projects. These principles mean that no project will need to go back to square one, that decisions are based on science and traditional knowledge, that meaningful consultations with communities and indigenous peoples take place, and that we take into account direct and upstream greenhouse gas emissions. I look forward to working with the agency, my colleagues, provinces, industry, and other stakeholders on this important review.

I am pleased to note that budget 2016 proposes to provide $14.2 million over four years to support the agency's activities and increase its capacity to undertake more consultations with the public and indigenous groups. This additional funding will be reflected in future estimates documents. Currently, the planned spending for the agency is marked at $30.9 million during 2016-17. This is consistent with funding levels for the last fiscal year.

Madam Chair, I would now like to bring your attention to the important work that is being done by Parks Canada and point out my priorities for that portfolio, which I know so many Canadians enjoy, especially as summer approaches.

I am sure everyone will agree with me when I say that our national parks, marine conservation areas, and national historic sites connect Canadians with their natural heritage. My priorities are to preserve and expand our national park system and marine conservation areas while respecting their ecological integrity.

In that regard, I can report that we have had very fruitful discussions with the Government of Ontario as well as with interested citizens to advance the completion of Rouge National Urban Park. I hope that we will soon be able to make an announcement.

You will have noted, of course that budget 2016 provides $42.4 million over five years to continue developing new national parks and national marine conservation areas, including the Lancaster Sound National Marine Conservation Area in Nunavut and the Thaidene Nëné National Park in the Northwest Territories.

We are also in the process of developing programs and services to allow more Canadians to enjoy our national parks, marine areas and historic sites. In this respect, I am delighted that the 2016 budget includes $83.3 million over five years for Parks Canada to allow free admission for all visitors.

I am sure that all the committee members will agree that this is an excellent way to celebrate our country's 150th anniversary and encourage new citizens and youth to learn more about our natural environment and our history.

Finally, I would like to say that I have learned to appreciate the essential role protected areas play in conserving nature and helping to mitigate and adapt to the impacts of climate change. I believe that we need to scale up our efforts to conserve the healthy, resilient ecosystems that we all depend on for our well-being. That is why I am pleased that budget 2016 is providing $81.3 million over five years to support marine conservation activities, including the designation of new marine protected areas. We are certainly determined to deliver on our promise to protect at least 17% of our land and 10% of our oceans by 2020.

In terms of the 2016-17 main estimates for Parks Canada, the planned spending for this fiscal year is $1.17 billion. The increase this fiscal year is mostly due to investment funding that Parks Canada has received to address infrastructure needs in national parks and national historic sites across Canada. Of course, all new funding announced in budget 2016 will be reflected in future estimate documents.

In conclusion, I want to stress how important it is to me that we work in the spirit of collaboration—within our own government and across party lines; with other jurisdictions in Canada and abroad; with individual Canadians, the private sector, and scientists; with NGOs, local communities, and indigenous peoples.

I would like to thank all of you for the important work you are doing as members of this committee. As parliamentarians, we are invested with a very important task when it comes to issues related to creating a clean environment and a sustainable economy for the benefit of all Canadians, as well as future generations of Canadians. As a new minister, I value your insights and welcome your suggestions, and I am very happy to take your questions.

Merci.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Thank you very much, Minister.

Everybody is very anxious to get on to asking the important questions. We will start with Mr. Shields, please.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Welcome, Minister. We are glad to have you here.

One of the things you mentioned here was the $2-billion investment that you are looking forward to working with. With that $2 billion, one of the first things that happen is that people want to know how to access it. Is it through provinces and then municipalities, or is it private sector? When announcements are made, people always want to know, “Where is the door? How do we get to it, and how do we disperse it?” That is the first step.

The second part would be the $50 million elsewhere, for the natural resource sector, that has been talked about as well. Is that part of the $2 billion, or is the $50 million for the resource sector separate?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

I believe you were referring first to the $2-billion low carbon economy fund.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Yes, I'm sorry.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

The $2-billion low carbon economy fund that was announced in the budget is intended to be funds that we would leverage to help reduce emissions in the most efficient way. As you know, we are going through a process with the provinces and territories. At the first ministers' meeting, the Prime Minister and the provinces and territories agreed that we need to meet our international obligations, so this is part of that discussion. We now have four working groups that have been set up: one is on carbon pricing; one is on mitigation opportunities; one is on clean jobs, technology, and innovation; and one is on adaptation.

As we go through that process, we are having discussions. The process has already started. We are having discussions with provinces and territories, and we will be listening to their suggestions about how we can support them to reduce emissions. We are going to be considering the most effective ways to support opportunities to reduce emissions, and we are really looking forward to hearing from the provinces and territories about their ideas and how we can help them.

I should also say that municipalities have a huge role to play, and we certainly recognize this. We have funding that has been set aside through the Federation of Canadian Municipalities. They have a green municipal fund, I believe it is called. We have set aside money, and that would be to help municipalities that are looking at projects to reduce emissions. I have had many meetings with municipalities across the country that are very committed to reducing their emissions.

The second part of funding I believe you are referring to is about clean technology in the natural resource sector.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

That's right.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

I think that's also important, because clearly there are ways we can develop our natural resources in a cleaner way. We had our announcement with the United States, which is a good example of that. We announced we are going to reduce emissions from methane, and from oil and gas, by 40% to 45%. This is a great example of how the economy and the environment go together. There's now low-cost innovation that allows you to, in an efficient way, reduce emissions from that sector.

Once again, in the process we're going through with the provinces and territories, in discussions with business and the natural resource sector, and with environmental NGOs and other groups, we'll be receiving suggestions about how we can develop our natural resources in more sustainable ways. That's what we'll be looking at, and where we will most effectively deploy what are significant but limited dollars.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

The $50 million is a separate piece from the $2 billion?

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

The $2 billion low carbon economy fund is a separate fund. We also have money for clean tech, which is part of the budget. There are different pieces for the clean tech, and we're also looking at the natural resource sector and how we clean it.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

That's important, in the sense that people understand when you're looking at numbers and where you can apply.

It's interesting you mentioned the municipalities. The big city guys—I was vice-president of Alberta municipalities association—are getting to be a stronger and stronger voice and work closely together. To have them at the table...I know you're working with the provinces, but the major cities in this country are beginning to have a strong voice, and probably some movement, as you identified. I hope the municipalities...I know FCM's there. That group out there, as an entity on its own, needs to be part of this discussion.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

I think that is an excellent point. There's been a lot of focus on the provinces and territories, but approximately 40% of the emissions we have are within the control of municipalities. That's why, when I went to the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, I said, “Look, I know you want to be partners.”

Many municipalities—from Ottawa, which just announced its climate plan, to Vancouver, which has been a leader—have plans to do the same exercise we're doing: reduce their emissions by a certain percentage. I've said I would like to see every municipality have a plan where they are going to, in a systemic way, look at how they are going to reduce emissions, and then come to the federal government with suggestions about how we can support these initiatives that are going to have real reductions in emissions. What are the types of projects? That is something that is absolutely in my radar, and thank you very much for bringing that up.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Thank you very much.

Mike Bossio.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Thank you so much, Minister, for being here today, as well as your staff. We appreciate your coming out to meet with us.

Our committee has just spent a number of meetings studying the FSDA and the FSDS. One of the key deficiencies identified has been making government more accountable around the FSDA and SDGs It has been suggested we need to legislate that the government must use the three pillars of social, economic, and environmental consideration in all decisions of program development or projects; that we should legislate that long-term objectives be established, and short-, medium-, and long-term targets and goals be set to meet these long-term sustainability objectives; that these goals and targets should meet the requirements of the SMART process; that we should take a whole-of-government approach and create a central agency, for example elevating the minister of environment and sustainable development to a sustainability, or like Wales has done, the minister for the well-being of future generations; and that we should increase the enforcement capability of the environment commissioner or sustainable development commissioner, whatever that title might be, to enforce compliance with stated goals and also to create a forward-looking agent to hold government accountable to the long-term objectives, once again for the well-being of future generations.

Can you please share your thoughts on these objectives and on these proposals?

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

I appreciate all the hard work. I know the committee has been looking at our FSDS and looking at different options.

I had a chance to read David Boyd's submission, and I think you referred to many points that he raised. I'm certainly interested in hearing about how we can improve it.

You will laugh possibly, but if you ask any of the members of cabinet, all I do is tell them that we need a whole-of-government approach when it comes to tackling climate change, and making sure that we have a strategy in place that shows that we are a leader. That's what we want to be.

It's challenging. Certainly looking at what the opportunities are across the board to bring together different departments, I think is part of the FSDS. I think we have close to 40 departments, or we maybe have more than 40, that are involved. It is a bit of a challenge. I think everyone is extremely committed to looking at how we can do better, but it's something that requires work.

What we did this year, and, as I say, the report is not perfect.... That's why it's a draft, and I certainly appreciate the feedback of the committee. We did link it with the UN sustainable development goals. I think that's very important. The sustainable development goals are something that I certainly care deeply about. They obviously go beyond just environmental goals. They talk about tackling poverty. The sustainable development strategy, the act, is looking at how government across the board tackles environmental issues.

It's not necessarily a perfect fix, but they are certainly goals that are aligned with what government is doing. There could not be a better example than climate change. That is certainly cross-cutting, and it fits extraordinarily well with the sustainable development goal to tackle climate change.

I certainly welcome suggestions and comments, and I know the commissioner has appeared here. I'm looking forward to hearing from you.

We also have public consultations that are ongoing across Canada to receive suggestions from all Canadians. I'm very active when I meet with anyone, with business, environmental groups, indigenous groups, climate activists, when I meet with youth. I say please, please provide your suggestions about how we can strengthen what government is doing and really be a leader.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

I'm really proud of our government moving forward on climate change and beginning to establish a carbon pricing mechanism for energy and carbon, but the elephant in the room, which many don't talk about, is consumption itself.

Carbon is one piece of the climate change model, sustainable development goals. To me, consumption is the core of the issue around climate change, and carbon pricing is the first time that we're actually pricing the consumption into our economic model.

What do you feel is the next area of consumption that we should consider pricing into that economic model?

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

Thank you for that, because I agree it's an important point. Carbon pricing is key.

I was in Washington this week, speaking with CEOs and environmentalists and political leaders about the importance of carbon pricing. We need to price what we want less of, pollution, and reward behaviour, reward cleaner solutions. That is an important mechanism.

I would say that we aren't quite there yet. I'm glad you're very optimistic. We have a process to go through with the provinces and territories.

It depends. When you talk about pricing consumption, I think there are a number of different models. One area that I think a lot about, where we can do a lot better, is efficiency. We're wasteful when you look at where emissions are coming from: buildings and vehicles. Those are huge areas. If we had efficiency standards, we could produce less pollution. That's part, once again, of the working group process that has been established.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Thank you.

Mr. Cullen.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Thank you, Minister, for being here. Thank you to all your officials as well.

Congratulations again on your appointment. It's such a critical role. Also, congratulations for your commitment, Canada's commitment, to limiting emissions to 1.5° above pre-industrial 1990 levels.

Did your department consider any kind of a home retrofit program in budget 2016?

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

Thank you very much, and thanks for your work in this regard.

We're looking at a whole range of different measures. One thing I'm very proud of in our budget, and something that I advocated for very strongly, is we that have significant investments in social infrastructure.

I advocated for that, and ministers were all on board. If we're going to build social housing, we need to make sure that it's extremely efficient. That's not only retrofits, which it does include, but it's also new housing, because it just makes economic sense.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

And I think that's laudable.

We've had previous home retrofit programs that were wildly popular and proved themselves under a government analysis to be effective as well for both homeowners reducing their costs and also for reducing our GHG emissions. As you just mentioned, buildings contribute quite a bit.

Just say yes or no. Did you consider it? Will you consider it in the future?

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

As you know, we're in discussions with provinces and territories, but through that process we have different working groups. One of the working groups is on mitigation. As part of that, there are working subgroups—I won't name all of them—but one of them is on buildings. Different groups have spoken to me about different structures of retrofit programs, so we'll be looking at all solutions in that regard.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

This wasn't a trick or a complicated question. All I wanted to know is, did your government consider a home retrofit program in drawing up budget 2016? Yes, you considered it and rejected it for now; no, you didn't consider it. That's all I'm looking for.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

We are always looking for solutions so we consider all solutions. In our budget you saw the significant investments we're putting into all sorts of areas—