Environment Committee on May 8th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Hang on. Let's just read—

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I think as we get through the bill there are other areas within the bill that deal with that specifically. In some instances it will be indigenous knowledge. In some instances it will be traditional. It will be dealt with throughout the bill.

The amendments I'm making are once again focused on what we heard in testimony around indigenous knowledge itself.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Before I give the floor to Mr. Fast, for clarification I will read the sentence. I hear your point, but I don't think it really fits right here. It says:

Whereas the Government of Canada recognizes that impact assessments provide an effective means of integrating scientific information and traditional knowledge of the Indigenous people of Canada into decision-making processes related to designated projects.

It does include “traditional knowledge”, but I guess what's being suggested is “Indigenous knowledge”.

It's not necessarily touching on what you're saying, Linda. It's just changing the word “traditional” to “indigenous”.

Mr. Fast, go ahead.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

I would like to hear from our civil servants on the distinction that Mr. Bossio is making. You have just read that paragraph from the preamble to the impact assessment act, which refers to “the traditional knowledge of the Indigenous peoples of Canada”.

I believe what he's asking for is to replace that term “traditional knowledge”—

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

With “indigenous”....

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Effectively, you have a redundant term because it says “the Indigenous knowledge of the Indigenous peoples of Canada”. Come on.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

We could ask for advice from Justice to make a comment on this. It might help provide the clarification.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Sure.

Who would like to speak to that? No.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Don't all speak at once, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Thank you very much.

[Jean-Sébastien Rochon, Counsel, Department of Justice]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The change was proposed in response to concerns that were raised by indigenous groups. One of the concerns expressed is that the notion of traditional knowledge seemed fixed in time, whereas the fact is their knowledge evolved over time. While it may be based on their traditional way of life, it doesn't necessarily mean that this knowledge must have originated from time immemorial.

That is the gist of the amendment proposed here. I'm not sure if you have any more questions on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Okay.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Rochon, why are you using the term “indigenous” twice virtually in the same sentence? It doesn't make sense. It's redundant. If you're going to remove the word “traditional” then the whole sentence should be restructured. Again, we're talking about the second paragraph in the preamble.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

For me, and because our legislative clerk is giving me advice here, and he does manage this, he assures me that there is no problem with redundancy in this sentence.

I don't know if you wanted to chime in, but that's the advice we're getting. It is not a redundant issue. It's defining the knowledge of indigenous people. I don't know if I'm explaining it well, but it's not redundant.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Then perhaps we could have an explanation from our civil servants as to the distinction between traditional knowledge and indigenous knowledge.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

I think we had a lot of testimony from indigenous groups that were talking about the challenge. I don't want to get into the witness testimony again.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Madam Chair, actually, the official just gave that very explanation—

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

It's not satisfactory.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

—talking about traditional knowledge versus indigenous knowledge, saying that it does change and evolve over time. It's not just one timestamp saying that this is traditional knowledge.

Once again, I think the timing is probably close to five minutes and we can move to the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

I think we've had a ruling from the legislative clerk that it's not redundant, and we did have a good explanation about not thinking it's something in the past, that it can be current as well and so—

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

With respect, the legislative clerk doesn't make rulings. You do, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

I'm hearing you and I'm listening to everybody.

Linda, I'll give you a few minutes. What do you have to add to the conversation?

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I have two things. I'm wondering if it makes sense, because then you're saying, “and the Indigenous knowledge of the Indigenous peoples”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

That's exactly what Ed's point is.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Okay. My second point is that I heard the that recommendation was not just for this provision, but throughout the bill, and I have a problem with this throughout the bill.

What are we voting on?