Environment Committee on Nov. 29th, 2018

[Alexander Nuttall]

A rebate: You're talking my language.

Don't you think that's something this committee should study? Should we not study where and how the carbon tax should be applied? There are entrepreneurs like you who are doing these amazing feats, who are going above and beyond, and who are able to create a business out of what other people see as nothing but garbage, and at the same time preserving our environment.

Don't you think we should somehow get that information in this room, so we can report it back to Parliament and they can then influence carbon tax policy going forward?

[Carolyn Butts]

Absolutely. My experience with the waste industry is that it's cloaked. There's a lot of study that needs to be done, but it's getting behind the cloak.

[Alexander Nuttall]

It's interesting that you say that, because there's a company in my riding.... I try not to talk just about my riding, but this happens to be a thing we actually have. It's called Barrie Metals. I don't know if you ever heard of Barrie Metals, but they sold for hundreds of millions of dollars a couple of years ago.

They take all your electronic waste and put it in a machine they've created that basically will pull out elements like silver, gold and what have you. They then sell off all of these different things, and the waste is almost nothing at the end of this process. It's actually incredibly reused, the plastic and everything. Nobody knows about them. Nobody realizes they're there, yet they are a gem internationally, trademarked all over their machinery to be able to do this.

That's on a very large level, but there are very small portions of this all over the place that we see in all different sectors. However, we don't know what you're able to do to help us, because we can't get a study on the carbon tax and on what's actually happening out there to prevent taxing in the wrong places or perhaps providing incentives in the right places, which is how I like to speak as a Conservative. The fact that we can't get there is a major issue for this committee.

Certainly, it sounds as though you'd like to hear that information.

[Carolyn Butts]

I would. I would like to be part of it.

[Alexander Nuttall]

We'd love to have you back, if our friends would allow us to do that.

[Carolyn Butts]

Sure. I've tried to investigate. I have visited many recycling depots to find out where their markets are. As I said, I've been to companies and tried to intercept their waste. I've done my digging, but I could get only so far. I don't know if I need some kind of a guise or something to help me get that information out of people.

[Alexander Nuttall]

It's interesting. There's one other thing. I have a minute, but I won't take the whole minute. There was one other really interesting one that I heard about. My aunt proposed something like this in Barrie, but I think she wanted me to do it and not her, which always makes a good aunt.

In Sweden, they have entire malls of things basically going to landfills and they take out everything that's usable. Artisans, colleges, and everybody work together and then they have the finished products. There are entire malls doing this—

[Carolyn Butts]

Yes, I've heard of that.

[Alexander Nuttall]

—and they have severely reduced the waste in the landfill. Can you envision something like that happening where you are? Would you need upfront funding to do it, or do you think it's something that can be done without?

[Carolyn Butts]

Absolutely, I can envision it. I think funding for research is where we need to start. I would love to go spend my time knocking on doors, but I also need to support myself and we need to work. I could see funding for research.

[Alexander Nuttall]

It could be an incentive to avoid carbon production by taking products that are already there and engaging them in a new process.

[Carolyn Butts]

We can't take waste out of landfills right now. We're not allowed. There are a lot of problems we have to deal with.

[Alexander Nuttall]

That's interesting.

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair]

Now Mr. Peschisolido, you have six minutes.

[Joe Peschisolido, Steveston—Richmond East, Lib.]

Mr. Chair, thank you. I'd like to welcome the witnesses and thank them for their testimony.

I'd like to begin with the Biological Carbon Canada group.

Mr. McCabe, I was fascinated by your presentation. You're talking about husbandry. You're talking about a change in the agricultural system. If we want to go from one type of economy into a low type of economy, we need to do what Mr. Rosaasen talked about. We need to adapt.

You talked about technological innovation and the need for the federal government to invest some monies. Can you elaborate both on the type of technological innovation you were referring to and on the type of investment you would be looking for from the federal government?

[Don McCabe]

Well, when it comes to technological innovation, the farmer is going to look for opportunities to incorporate that technology into a system of action. It can be the need for seeds that have been researched and brought to bear for markets. It can be research for what we do with that product when it's done. It's a complete continuum, as our friends from forestry have pointed out. It has to be a continuous cycle.

The technology innovation chain we're now on is so rapid in agriculture. As Nevin pointed out, we had opportunities for our equipment to run autonomously long before Cadillacs were sexy with their tools. Now, where we are today and where we're headed to next with satellite imagery, drone activity and remote sensing will allow individuals to manage their acres with much more precision and much less work. The sensors that will be able to be deployed in fields will pick up on pest management opportunities and other opportunities to manage.

This is the tip of the iceberg. I can go on about it all day long. At the same time, it's also important to make sure there are educated individuals who can come and back us up. The farmer is the manager of the whole thing, but he needs people with expertise in given subject areas to be able to figure out the nitty-gritty.

[Joe Peschisolido]

I don't recall who mentioned the concept for our nutritional systems, but can one of you elaborate a bit on that?

[Nevin Rosaasen]

Sure. Thank you.

What we call 4R nutrient stewardship is based on the reduction of nitrous oxide emissions. It's also referred to as the NERP protocol. It's based on using the right amount of fertilizer, at the right rate, in the right place and at the right time. By doing that, we have huge opportunities to reduce greenhouse gas emissions that are currently accruing through fertilizer use. We can also reduce volatilization, runoff, etc.

It's basically matching up the exact prescribed plant nutrients that you need. That can change depending on whether you're at the top of a knoll, as we say in agricultural soils, on a mid-slope, or down at the bottom. We have the software, technology and variable-rate application so that you can change the rates all throughout. It's already pre-programmed before you get into that tractor and start driving.

It's an amazing technology. It's being implemented all around the world. It was designed and created, of course, here in Canada. It's time for us to recognize that these protocols exist. They need to be continually updated with the science, as our science evolves, but it represents just one opportunity that we've already employed in the agricultural systems. We just need to actually recognize it.

We're part of the way there. We just need to give credit where credit is due, and recognize that this is a carbon cycle. When it comes down to pricing carbon, absolutely, people respond when you hit them in their wallets. As we are trade-exposed sectors working on small margins, we need to actually look at where all of these advancements have been made. Absolutely, we're part of the solution.

[Joe Peschisolido]

Ms. Butts and Mr. Honegger, perhaps you don't get into this, but you didn't talk about how you've restructured structures. Do you get into that? Do you simply provide goods that you put in houses or condos?

[Carolyn Butts]

I'd like Hans to speak to this. He is one of Canada's notorious, well-known restoration architects. He's worked across Canada.

[Joe Peschisolido]

That's what I thought, but you really didn't talk about that much.

[Hans Honegger]

My background is in community revitalization. I was co-director of National Trust for Canada's Main Street program. For most of my life I've been with organizations that have approached creating sustainability and rural scapes. We're still engaged in that.

I'll get back to the question.

[Joe Peschisolido]

No, please go ahead.

[Hans Honegger]

Our strategy for existing is low overhead. That liberates us to pretty well design our own lives. In rural Canada, in most places, you can pretty well do that. I designed the restoration schemes for Nelson, British Columbia—I was resident coordinator of that project—and Perth, Ontario. My life has been with old buildings, but I'm not against demolition, which is a harsh thing to say, as long as what replaces it is better than the existing. That's the directive in most cases. Buildings have to earn their keep, and to that end, mixed use is always considered.

[Joe Peschisolido]

Thank you.