Environment Committee on Nov. 29th, 2018

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you so much for being here today. It was, as always, great testimony and very informative.

Of course, I'd very much like to welcome my good friends, Hans and Carolyn, to our committee meeting today. I have to say that in the 15 years that I've known you, I can't believe what you have accomplished in taking vast amounts of waste and turning it into incredible art, and not just art, actually. You've repurposed structures. You've created structures. You've built structures from waste. I guess that's where I'd like to go.

We've had this conversation numerous times, this cradle-to-cradle concept of not looking at consumption just as something being made, consumed and then going to a landfill. We need to think at the very beginning of that process of the reuse of that. I guess maybe I'd like to get your comments and your thoughts around the cradle-to-cradle concept.

[Carolyn Butts]

I believe that design is a large part of consumption. There are waste products that are recycled. We know about the PET plastics that are turned into garbage cans and fairly rudimentary, cheap products. I think that design needs to be at the table along with science and technology. We buy with our hearts. I sell my products because people like them. It's not because they're recycled.

Definitely, cradle to cradle there's the design portion into that. Also, in making products, when you recycle a product like a plastic bottle, for example, it should be into something that does not have a cheaper competition. We need to look at the properties of the materials that we are recycling and make new products with them, give them properties that nothing else has. That is science and technology research as well. I think we need a lot of research around waste, and design needs to be there to help these scientists, technologists, to discover what it can then become after it's been used.

I think that's what you're talking about, Mike.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

In the past, we've talked about how we'd like to see the three Rs changed to reduce, repair, reuse and upcycle.

As you mentioned, when people think of recycle, they think it's downcycle, so they think it has less value than what it did when it was originally made. If we look at it from an upcycle standpoint, from the very beginning of the design process, then we see more value in that material after use than we did at the beginning of the process.

There's Herman Miller chairs, and a number of other companies out there that are using this philosophy and it makes them more profitable. For you guys, the profit that you're earning from stuff that you're basically getting for free is fantastic.

It goes beyond that though. Once again, the buildings that you guys have created and you've now repurposed into Airbnbs and other things, you're using recycled materials—upcycled materials, sorry—in those buildings as well, right?

[Carolyn Butts]

Yes, we've loaded our rooms with tires, but you can't smell them and they make very interesting textures and functional products.

For example, this purse that's made from inner tube, I don't know if you caught that, but this is agricultural and bicycle inner tubes. It's an incredible material. It's better than leather, but this inner tube makes it into landfills. Where I live I can get this for days. There's so much of it in agriculture. I'm sure you've seen it. It's more durable than leather. I think there are properties too that we have to discover and maybe we can look at the products that we make and break them down or reuse them.

In our business, we don't have a lot of input costs. We don't grind down. We don't want to pollute our water or our air, so I like to take material and keep it as honest as possible. I don't know if that's entirely possible with everything that we create in our consumption society, but I think we have a long way to go. I think that we need to innovate our way out of landfilling and burning.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Even Hans himself, as well, built a tiny home on a trailer that was being discarded. He took that trailer and then took materials that were being discarded and built a tiny home with them. It sits on the property down by Salmon River, which is rented out as an Airbnb to artists, who go down there because it's such a beautiful setting.

Hans, I think you'll agree this is another example of what we can do, instead of just throwing things in the landfill. It's really part of that circular economy that we need to pay more attention to.

[Carolyn Butts]

We're throwing out money. I'm a business grad. I just see this as more material and it's great material.

That's how we change. We have to demonstrate that this garbage has value, so then people will not want to throw it out and we will repurpose it.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you both.

[The Chair]

Next, I have Monsieur Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll continue with you, Ms. Butts. I find that very interesting.

I'm very interested in forestry and Biological Carbon Canada, but I will come back to that.

[Carolyn Butts]

I'm sorry. I don't have....

Hans will speak.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Okay.

Actually, I just want to congratulate you. The creativity of what you have demonstrated to us today is interesting. That's impressive.

I would like to inform you that, in my constituency, I have set up a circular economy committee. I find it interesting that you have recovered tires, pool filters and other products. You said it's waste, but it's not. It is a residue that has become a raw material for another company. Waste is unusable whereas a residue is recoverable.

A company in my riding makes pastry for pies, but the leftovers are very expensive to dispose of and transport. A farmer on that committee had the intuition to propose to recover the pastry, even if it meant figuring our how it could be processed, instead of transporting it for miles from the factory. He offered to take the pastry home to turn it into food for his animals. It's sort of the same principle, but it's much more [technical difficulties] on your side. The idea is to recycle. You work with elements that already exist.

Around this table, we all agree that we must work in the interests of the environment and take measures to reduce the environmental footprint. I think everyone has to do their part.

You have been creative, you have found solutions and you are doing extraordinary things. Does the solution really lie in a carbon tax?

[Hans Honegger]

Not necessarily.

[Carolyn Butts]

Where would you put the carbon tax?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Actually, the carbon tax is a tax on consumption. All citizens would pay taxes on consumer products, and that money would be used to help them. I think that, with a budget of $300 billion, the government can find money without imposing an additional tax. It's a matter of philosophy. The government must promote initiatives such as yours and the thousands that are being launched in this great country, and give you the tools to help you with recycling.

Later, I will have questions for the other witnesses about the most effective ways to reduce GHG emissions. That is why I am asking you whether the carbon tax is a good solution. I have an answer, but I would like to know what your thoughts are on it. From your reaction, I think you agree with me.

[Carolyn Butts]

I don't know if I can support a tax on this. The way I see it as a business person is that the materials are free. Right there, if you're a manufacturer, you're saving money. I would expect manufacturers that make the materials that I would use and keep using, such that I'd keep going back to that source, to start charging me for that material so that they would have another revenue stream.

I don't think about taxes so much as just opportunity for materials. I think it's a win-win because, if you're not manufacturing new materials and you're using old materials, there's a carbon savings. I don't see a tax, personally.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Butts. I really like your philosophy.

: I will now quickly address the representatives from the Forest Products Association of Canada because time is running out.

Mr. Larocque, in your testimony, you talked about the various opportunities in the world of forestry to reduce the environmental impacts. I found that interesting. However, something in your comments bothered me. I'm not sure whether the interpretation was accurate, but you often used the conditional tense of “to be able to” when talking about techniques, the management of our forests, reforestation, and so on.

You yourself said that the planet must react. Is the industry committed to taking concrete action now? If so, what tools should the government provide to that end?

[Robert Larocque]

I will be honest with you, there are two possibilities.

This transition will be made, but it must be accelerated. The perfect example would be to have government assistance to open up markets, such as high-rise buildings.

Then there are provincial policies related to forest management.

In addition, research has to be done on biofuels and bioplastics. We know that we can remove molecules in order to replace fossil fuel, much like in agriculture, but we still have to work with end-users to ensure that they are able to accept those products.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you very much. Unfortunately, my time is up.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair]

Thank you.

Mr. Stetski, you have six minutes.

[Wayne Stetski, Kootenay—Columbia, NDP]

Thank you for the very interesting testimony.

This morning I attended the Canadian Parks and Recreation Association breakfast. One of the giveaways they had was a really artistic key chain made from a recycled skateboard.

I really admire and appreciate the work that you're doing. Is there currently any innovation funding to help small businesses get started to do the kind of work that you're doing? If you're not aware of any, should the government be providing that kind of funding?

[Carolyn Butts]

It's funny that you ask that.

I just went through the list. Right now, there's an initiative with money for women. There's huge support out there. There was money for innovation in the waste and energy sectors. I don't meet the qualifications, but I think it's out there.

My reaction to the grants or funding available was that it didn't really understand—I can say for myself—women in the industry that it was directed towards or people in the industry.

To answer your question, yes, there is funding available. I wouldn't qualify for it. I'd like to think there are people at the grassroots doing this work. We have not had funding.

We have done this because we are using free materials. I keep coming back to that. I make money out of free materials, essentially, because I can.

[Wayne Stetski]

There's funding, but perhaps do the qualifications need to change, in terms of being able to access it?

[Carolyn Butts]

For me they do.

[Wayne Stetski]

We're looking for recommendations for the government to help reduce the carbon footprint and help the economy.

[Carolyn Butts]

I would like to be involved in that, if you want recommendations. Off the top of my head, I can't think of exactly—