Environment Committee on April 3rd, 2019

[Joanne Gauci]

Thank you for the question. I can jump in on this one.

In the process of the consultation we just did around the potential for a pact in Canada, we did a compare-and-contrast document of the global commitments and the national commitments with the different targets around single use. We are certainly happy to share that.

We also discussed the need for a priority list of single-use items that are problematic, but we don't have that at this time.

[William Amos, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Okay.

I'll pivot quickly back to Environmental Defence and Ecology Action Centre, and also maybe to Professor Liboiron.

Are there studies around the incentives, or rather subsidies, that are provided to the plastics industry? I have not seen any and I wonder if that information is available.

[Max Liboiron]

I would love to see that. I don't know.

[William Amos, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

It's asserted, but I haven't seen the evidence.

[Vito Buonsante]

I don't have a full overview of all the subsidies. I know of a couple, more or less anecdotally, from the media, such as a plant in Sarnia that received $100 million from the Ontario government for production of plastic and $35 million from the federal government, and a plant owned by NOVA Chemicals that is going to receive around $200 million in royalties. Those are the ones I know of from the media.

Unfortunately, one of the big problems we're having is access to various types of data in terms of recycling, in terms of production, in terms of inputs of plastics and in terms of various drivers for the overflow of plastic.

We ask ourselves why there is such a small amount of recycled plastic right now, and unfortunately the data is very sketchy.

[William Amos, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Okay, thank you.

My last question will simply be a request to the Canadian Plastics Industry Association to please provide any written opinion that they may have as to why the federal government ought not to use its CEPA jurisdiction to ban single-use plastics.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you, and that's the end of your time.

We go over to Mr. Fast for six minutes.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

That is the first question I was going to ask the industry.

Ms. Hochu, your industry does produce single-use plastics. You've heard reference around the table here to perhaps eliminating single-use plastics completely in our economy. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on, first of all, whether that's advisable and whether it's possible and how you as an industry would respond to proposals to eliminate single-use plastics.

[Carol Hochu]

Thank you for the question. It was covered at a very high level in our presentation, and we made reference to the true cost study. We'll certainly provide the link to the full study that showed the environmental cost of plastic use in consumer goods is nearly four times less than alternative materials.

The committee should understand that every material choice has impacts, and so in considering alternatives, we support a life-cycle approach or a science-based approach in considering those impacts. With respect to bans, they eliminate choice and they can have unintended negative environmental consequences.

Joe, would you like to add to that?

[Joe Hruska]

There is a purpose for this packaging, and much of it has to do with hygiene and the delivery of food products in a safe way. That has developed over the years to minimize environmental, economic and social impacts. I would believe there would be a drastic impact on the delivery of, for example, food at quick serve within our grocery stores.

It also prevents a lot of food waste, and that has been well documented. We can provide that information to you, not just from my organization but from independent third parties. Plastic prevents waste.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

I will also ask you to follow up on something that was raised by my colleague, Mr. Amos.

I believe his preference is that our study focus on the reduction of the use and production of plastics instead of perhaps focusing on the recycling, recovery and reuse of plastics. Again, I'd be interested to hear your comments.

[Carol Hochu]

Mr. Fast, I did make a very quick comment at the end of our presentation that suggested that we need a systems approach with all of the four Rs: reduce, reuse, recycle, recover. I appreciate it adds to the complexity of the focus of your study and that there's a limited time period in the parliamentary calendar, but I think our recommendation would be to focus on all four Rs.

Joe?

[Joe Hruska]

I would agree with that.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

All right.

I'll share a little anecdote with my colleagues here around the table. I recently went to my favourite restaurant in Abbotsford, British Columbia, White Spot. I ordered a milkshake at the drive-through. They provided me this time with a straw that was not plastic; it wasn't a single-use plastic. It appeared to be some kind of a paper product. As I consumed the milkshake, the straw became soggier and soggier and eventually collapsed completely in on itself. I wasn't able to finish the milkshake, other than drinking it directly. Of course, it got all over my nose and made a bit of a mess.

The purpose of that anecdote is the fact that, if you're talking about replacing and reducing plastics, you'd better have an alternative that works and that is functional. If it's not functional, we're not serving our communities well.

I'll leave it at that. I'll just say that, as we move forward, we're going to scope out our study, Mr. Chair, and hopefully come up with a limited mandate. I hope that mandate would not be exclusive to reduction but would be much broader. In fact, I wouldn't want to focus on reduction. I would want to focus on how we properly recover and recycle plastic and use it in a responsible, ethical way.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

You still have a minute and a half. Does anybody else from your group want to...?

Mr. Yurdiga, do you want to take the minute and a half remaining?

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today.

In 2010, in my community of Fort McMurray, we got away from single-use plastics. I found in our household that we didn't reduce plastic use because we used to use the grocery bags as garbage liners for the receptacles. So we didn't reduce plastic.

What I'm looking at is we have a waste management problem more than a plastic issue. We looked at China, Indonesia. There's technology out there to make it valuable. In the U.K., they're turning plastic waste into ecobricks.

We also have APT, alternative power technology, turning it into diesel fuel. We have to manage the resource. We don't call it waste; we call it resource with a value on it. I think we'll accomplish more because right now there's nothing that really replaces plastic.

My question is for Carol Hochu.

Are you aware of technologies to use plastic in ways other than municipal waste?

[Carol Hochu]

I will turn the microphone to Joe. Joe is our recycling guru, an expert in the CPIA. In fact, he helped launch the blue box program in Ontario many years ago. Joe can speak to some of the newer technologies that are helping to recover plastic waste.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm just going to jump in quickly. We're out of time.

Would you do a very tight answer on it, and then I do have Mr. Stetski who is also waiting with his questions.

[Joe Hruska]

To answer your question, there is an actual increase in commercial operations that can deal with plastic deformation, with dirty plastics, unrecyclable plastics. I was not able to cover it in detail here. Even in Edmonton, they have the Enerkem facility making ethanol and methanol for the circular economy. So, yes, those technologies exist and they are developing at a fast rate.

I can supply more information to the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Perfect. Thank you.

Mr. Stetski, we'll go over to you for your six minutes.

[Wayne Stetski, NDP, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you. The testimony is very interesting.

I'd like to start with the Canadian Plastics Industry Association.

Since the industry creates the plastics, there were some who said that the industry should be responsible, then, for reducing, reusing, recycling and recovering these plastics. What do you see as the role of industry? Do you agree that industry should take on all four aspects of making the life of plastics better?

[Joe Hruska]

Thank you, Member of Parliament.

Let me say this. Extended producer responsibilities have been good for plastics. We export very little to China—well, maybe a bit too much, 12% to 16% compared to other countries. Other countries ask me why we're actually doing so well. It's because we have producer responsibility.

I launched the first program in Canada after launching the blue box program, gaining a United Nations award. We took those stewardship monies and developed end markets for materials. I have to say that for our B.C. friends on the Internet there, their same industry in that area is developing markets for plastic.

If you talk to Ontario municipalities, yes, you find some are having a problem marketing their plastics, but many will tell you it's not a problem. So, we really believe in producer responsibility. It provides infrastructure, end markets and investment. It's good for plastics, and good for all other materials.

[Wayne Stetski, NDP, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Do you think they have a role in all four elements then?

[Joe Hruska]

Yes, I do. Definitely.

The brand owners who want us to supply those plastics want it managed. Their consumers are actually saying, “What are you going to do to make it easy for me to make the right choice. I don't want to put it in the garbage. I want to put it in the blue box or take it to the depot.” I think there is co-operation amongst government, industry and the consumers that will make this work. Industry can lead this by putting in the programs.

[Wayne Stetski, NDP, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Is there any particular area out of those four where you think industry can and should do more?