Environment Committee on May 6th, 2019

[James D. Downham]

What you're asking is very difficult.

I think the point that I was trying to make earlier with the image of Walmart and all of those logos on the slide was to communicate to you that the big, powerful packaged goods companies and retailers out there, certainly in Canada, are very responsible citizens. They're doing great work, and they're doing great things.

Let me give you an example. A month ago we saw a publication about a person who is a very high-profile individual and was talking about compostable packaging. This person was a subject-matter expert on writing cookbooks but had no clue about the packaging.

The reality is that the packaging was not compostable at all. It was probably brought in from offshore, and it was probably brought in from somebody from a small or medium-sized organization who walked in and said, “This is a green product. This is an eco”—they have all kinds of words for it, right?

Procter & Gamble and those companies would never do that stuff. I assure you, they just wouldn't, but those other companies would because they're entrepreneurs. They see a green package. They saw it online somewhere. They're going to start importing it. They go into business.

We have to figure out a way to manage that better, to educate those people and to control that. I don't have an easy answer for you on that. I really don't.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

It's the Beer Store conundrum that you just mentioned.

[James D. Downham]

Yes.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Please, Mr. Brooks.

[Keith Brooks]

I want to make a comment about this international piece.

There are many things that Canada regulates just inside our borders that are different from what's happening in the rest of the world. Of course, we need to pay attention, being in a connected economy, etc., but we have the power to deal with things.

On packaging, which is a lot of the single-use plastics we're talking about, remember that Canada has it's own unique rules around packaging. We have to have French language. We have to have nutritional ingredients and all kinds of stuff. People are already considering and patching things specifically for this jurisdiction.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

The last question—

Sorry, go ahead.

[Philippe Cantin]

I was just going to add that this could actually help retailers as well in their discussions with their suppliers. They're the importers in many cases. When there's an EPR framework, they're the producers that are responsible under the framework.

Having stricter regulations that are specific in terms of what is supplied to them might be helpful to them, because in many cases they don't have access to the information about what's in the packaging except for the specs that they have given to their suppliers if they have private brands. That's the only thing. That could actually facilitate their relationship with their suppliers.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I have a final question. A lot of the testimony we've heard discussed the molecular level, the chemical type of recycling that has come to the fore and that Dow has talked about. A number of different chemical associations talked about it, and a number of different witnesses have come forward to say it is the direction we need to go, breaking everything down to the molecular level so that all plastics can be recycled and converted into new products.

Should it be legislated at some point that we go with a chemical process versus a mechanical process from now on to deal with any plastics?

[Dan Lantz]

No, because you have a very, very robust infrastructure in Canada for mechanical recycling right now that you would just completely undermine, so it wouldn't be a good idea.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

We could do it over an extended period of time, say by 2030, if we wanted to achieve a level where we're only using chemical processes to break it down to that molecular level so that all plastics can then be recycled.

[Dan Lantz]

They work very well together. It's a very symbiotic relationship. You don't need to get rid of one to support the other.

[Keith Brooks]

I think there are interesting innovations, and we don't want to block innovation, but also, none of this is being done at scale right now, so we have no idea how expensive it's going to be, how much of it can be done and all of that kind of stuff. We should explore it.

In the meantime, Canada has endorsed the precautionary principle, which says that we don't know the outcomes and that we're going to take the safest approach. That's why we're advocating that we enforce that plastics are toxic under CEPA, and only when they're proven to be safe and we know we can recycle them do we allow them in Canada and in the markets, etc.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Mr. Shields, welcome back to the committee. We haven't seen you for a while. It's always a pleasure to see you.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you. I'm glad to be back.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

If you and Mr. Lobb want, I will give you five minutes for whatever questions you have for the panel.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

This may have been asked earlier, but I'll start.

When you talk about beer, for example, I think that the microbreweries do the best job of recycling bottles out there. I have family who own microbreweries, and everybody who's loyal to the micro-brand brings back their growler and refills it, so there is a beer world out there that's working on recycling.

On municipalities—and you may have discussed the municipal world—most of what I hear, because of our former roles in municipalities, is that they're the ones that do this. When you establish regulations, I see all of this coming down to the municipalities to deal with it, and there are unintended consequences. Every time standards set, every time you're doing this kind of thing, the municipalities are the front line of this business that we're talking about.

Who is going to pay for this? The property owner is the basis of the taxpayer.

[James D. Downham]

With EPR regulation coming down—it's been around in Canada for some time—in British Columbia, you have 100% paid for by the producers now. Ontario is at 50%, and they're reviewing that. Quebec is 100%.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

My municipality was paying for it where I was the mayor—not the producers.

[James D. Downham]

I'm sorry. Where was that?

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

We collect it, we sort it, and we do all this stuff.

[Dan Lantz]

Alberta doesn't have EPR yet.

[James D. Downham]

I think it's the only province in the country that doesn't have it. Sorry.

[Dan Lantz]

Alberta and the east coast do not have EPR at the present time. They're talking about introducing it right now very strongly and having the stewards and the producers of the packaging be responsible for the cost of managing that material.

[James D. Downham]

The producers have stepped up in the provinces where they're taking it. They're saying they're prepared for this.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

That is the challenge in Canada. When you say it's easy to do national regulations, we do have provinces and municipalities in there. As long as it doesn't come down to the municipalities being responsible for paying the freight on this.... That's a concern.