Environment Committee on May 6th, 2019

[James D. Downham]

Could I just add something really quickly? I know you're at the end of your time.

When I came in to run PAC in 2006-07, there were 175 packaging converters. Packaging converters are those who take raw materials and convert them into a box, a glass or a can. They manufacture packaging. Today we have about 75, and that is because of the fact that most of it has moved offshore. We have flexible packaging, which is a potato chip bag and things like that. Most of the companies that produce those in Canada are small, privately held family-owned operators. The major producers of these materials are coming in primarily from the U.S. They all had big operations in Canada, but they no longer have them. They've all backed out.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Mr. Fisher, you have six minutes.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thanks, folks. I appreciate your being here.

I'm going to back to harmonization and the Retail Council of Canada's comments. I think you're bang on that we need to come up with some type of harmonization. Mr. Fast touched on this.

You have your municipality, which handles solid waste. You have your province, which issues the permit for the landfill. You have your federal government, which really only handles toxic chemicals through CEPA. Maybe FCM can play a role in this. What we have in HRM, Halifax Regional Municipality, is a four stream.

Someone else mentioned—I think it might even have been you folks—consumer education. We have four people in our house: two teenagers and two adults. We all try to do the right thing, but we all make mistakes. I just found out that the film that wraps vegetables or food is not to go in the plastic waste. So, as I was listening to this, I checked with the former deputy mayor in Halifax, and he said that, yes, there's no market for film. I've been throwing film in, and I feel like I'm doing a good job.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

It's the same with me.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Then you go to a restaurant, and the restaurant has two streams in a four stream, so then you talk about enforcement. I know that I'm sounding like I'm all over the place here. All of your testimony was wonderful, but I'm not coming away with how we proceed.

I'll just finish quickly and then give the time up.

Mr. Fast talked about the building codes, and I thought that was a really clever idea: that we could maybe look at it as a general umbrella of regulations. However, we're still not going to have the ability to enforce at the federal level what these municipalities and provinces do, whether it be the permit or whether they go....

That goes to the Retail Council of Canada. It's more of a discussion than a question, and I apologize for that.

[Philippe Cantin]

Sure. No problem.

Waste management is definitely an issue that is both municipal and provincial. The regulatory framework right now is designed in a very linear way. When we're talking about the economy and linear economy, everything is such that basically you produce something, you consume it and then you dump it.

There is clearly a need to close the loop on that, and in the regulatory framework there's nothing to address that at this point. This is where I think the federal government should jump in to close the loop. There is work to be done to facilitate upstream decisions in the supply chain to eventually help the supply chain get on board with material that's being recycled from collection streams from municipalities and provinces.

There is something to be done there, and I think this the role of the federal government, because it's not something we have seen at this point. Everything is made to be handled, from production to disposal. There is something to be done both to address the upstream from the packaging you're using for an item, and downstream from what the customer will be doing by putting the right packaging in the blue box or the green bin.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

By all means, Mr. Downham.

[James D. Downham]

There is a body that functions today called the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment, which is a very significant organization, in my mind.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

It's not binding.

[James D. Downham]

They're clearly responsible for strategy with regard to all things to do with the environment. They are working right now on a zero plastic waste action plan.

It seems to me that if you've given them—the federal government, or whoever...and they've agreed to collaborate and have that discussion, they really just need to take their rule setting down one notch further to say that if they're collectively going to agree on EPR, as an example—extended producer responsibility— they need to take EPR and that subset to harmonize in this way throughout the provinces. Collectively those 13 people at the table—14 because there's a federal body there as well—could make those decisions.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

The CCME had an action plan on EPR in 2009, and I believe it has not really gone anywhere.

[James D. Downham]

EPR is fully implemented, and it's being followed. The problem is that it lacks teeth to take it down to exactly what you're asking about. That's what we're saying; they're going through the plastics review right now.

Don't take a plastics review, separate it, put in an EPR for plastics and have an EPR 1.0. Put the two of them together. That's when you put the teeth into it and then you give it a little more power. That's where I would do it.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Is there time for Mr. Brooks? He wanted to—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

You have a minute left.

[Keith Brooks]

I think this committee is headed in some good directions on limiting the types of plastics and the plastic components rather than the products. I think that's a good way to go—looking at toxicity, recyclability and other criteria.

When it comes to the federal role, standardization is absolutely the way to go, but I don't think the building code is the right analogy, because the model national building code is also not enforceable—it's nothing the provinces need to go by—so you need to do something that has teeth.

The fight we're having on carbon right now is about whether it's constitutional, so this order of government needs to establish, first, that it has the constitutional means to regulate plastics. The way they should do that is through CEPA and through toxicity to the environment and human health. That pathway has already survived with microbeads.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Mr. Lobb, welcome to the committee. We'll move over to you for six minutes.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

It's great to be here. I see you're using recycled paper for your time warnings. That's great to see.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

It has all kinds of colours in it.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I want to ask Environmental Defence a question. I normally sit on the health committee, and I've probably missed most of what's going on here.

There's a thing out to do with plastic, which I guess you could see in the news or whatever. You go to the store, buy something and it has plastic on it. You eat whatever is in it and you put it in the recycling container, but you don't clean it. Let's say there's some sort of film kicking around on it.

My understanding is that, in some areas, if that goes through the recycling process, that's kicked out and sent to China or wherever else. Is that what you guys understand? What's going on with that?

[Keith Brooks]

It used to get sent to China, but they won't take it anymore.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Well, that's true. Okay.

Does it get sent somewhere else?

[Keith Brooks]

I think my industry colleagues have a better sense of where the stuff goes. To be honest, it's a bit of a black box. And that's one of the other things we would like to bring to this committee. We need more transparency and data to understand what kinds of plastics are coming into Canada, what the recycling rates are, and we want to talk about materials.

There are also some products that are problematic because they get contaminated with food. We would like to see that transparency as well over time so that we can set targets and move towards them, but we have the data that we need to understand where the problems lie.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Does anybody in the committee know where, say, a dirty plastic container goes? Does it get recycled or does it go to Timbuktu?

[James D. Downham]

They keep closing the doors because nobody wants it any longer.

[Dan Lantz]

Which plastic...? PET, HDPE and polypropylene 1, 2 and 5 stay in Canada, and they are normally recycled.