Evidence of meeting #154 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was packaging.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON
I have another question on toxins.
Mr. Brooks, you talked a little bit about this and said that it would require a whole other conversation. As part of your recommendations, you actually said that you would ban polymer, or something. Is there something specific that you have in mind? I ask because I often think that every other country in the world is far more advanced than we are with regard to toxins. We have to prove to ourselves that it's toxic, whereas other countries kind of say, “Well, prove to us that it's not toxic.”
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON
From a government perspective, what's the obvious thing we should make sure is banned here in Canada?
4:45 p.m.
Programs Director, Environmental Defence Canada
We would support a criteria-based approach to banning plastics in Canada. The main criterion that we pick are plastics that are made from or contain toxic ingredients, like PVC and polystyrene. They could degrade to potentially toxic things as well, so they're more obviously toxic to the environment. Also, we pick on those things that are not readily, or just not practically, recycled. Again, these are a lot of the food containers and those kinds of things.
The things that are the most toxic are the things we find leaking into the environment and the things that are not recyclable. That's where we would go.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good afternoon everyone. Thank you all for being with us today.
I pay close attention to the plastics problem plaguing the world. I've read articles in Nature, GEO and National Geographic, so I'm familiar with the problem. It's horrifying to see the continent of plastic often featured in TV documentaries.
Ms. Dionne, before getting into plastics, strictly speaking, I'd like you to clarify something. You mentioned the use of molecular technology in plastic recycling. You said it would soon be possible to recycle all plastics. What did you mean by soon?
4:50 p.m.
Director, Eco-conception, Circular Economy, Éco Entreprises Québec
A number of start-ups exist right now. They need help moving into the next phase and accessing a larger supply of recyclable content. That content also has to be able to make its way to those companies. Some of them are no longer start-ups, but they have not yet reached the point of developing and applying their processes at the industrial level.
Other companies are operating at full capacity and have become diversified. Three of them are in Montreal—Pyrowave, Loop Industries and Polystyvert—and they process different types of resin. In our brief, I included a link to our plastic solutions forum. More than 25 companies came to showcase their technologies.
It's important to identify innovative companies in Canada. International companies could also share their knowledge with us. If, tomorrow morning, we woke up to the political will and government desire to support this kind of innovation, it would solve a whole lot of problems.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
I see.
Thank you, Ms. Dionne.
Mr. Brooks and Mr. Buonsante, we hear a lot about these plastic containers in the Pacific Ocean. In the other oceans of the world, are there the same kinds of plastic areas and about the same size?
4:50 p.m.
Programs Director, Environmental Defence Canada
Yes, there's plastic. I mean there's a bunch of these gyres circulating whirlpools, where the water moves very slowly and isn't in major currents. That's where the plastic collects. It's not quite a floating island of garbage. It's actually a bunch of plastics that have broken down into pieces—they can be large pieces and small pieces—up and down through the water column. It's very difficult to clean up. It's not as though we can go out there and just hoover it all off the surface. It's up and down throughout the water column, and it's all different sizes.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
4:50 p.m.
Programs Director, Environmental Defence Canada
Plastic has been found in the deepest ocean trench. As far down as we've gone, we've found plastic. We've found plastic in the High Arctic. It's everywhere they look and in every animal they test. They followed eight different people across the world. These were people with different diets and different ways of life, and in 100% of the feces samples that were tested, they found plastic. It's everywhere.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Exactly how deep and how wide is this huge amount of plastic that's in the Pacific Ocean?
4:50 p.m.
Programs Director, Environmental Defence Canada
They used to say that it was the size of Texas, but they no longer say how big it is. It's massive. And there are many of them.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
In terms of its weight, it must be having some effect on the patterns of the ocean. Is it disturbing the way in which the ocean moves around?
4:50 p.m.
Programs Director, Environmental Defence Canada
I don't know. I think climate change is a bigger threat for oceanic currents, really, than plastics are, but it is a threat to marine life, big time. That's why we're seeing these animals dying.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
I'm not quite sure I understood clearly what you said earlier. Are you suggesting that we should one day ban completely all the kinds of plastics we use in Canada, for example?
4:50 p.m.
Programs Director, Environmental Defence Canada
No, but we think the ban should be part of the solution that Canada brings to bear in solving the plastic pollution problem. We think extended producer responsibility is a good way to go. We actually share a lot of the ideas our colleagues have put out here today—extended producer responsibility, bans, high recycled-content standards. We think the role for government around extended producer responsibility is to set high targets, hold producers responsible for reaching those targets, and levy fines if they don't get there. Establish that you have the powers to do it. Go ahead and let the provinces figure out the details. Let the producers figure out the details of how they're going to do it. You set the standard. You make them meet it.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
If we were to have the best standards of normalization, how long would the process take, do you think? You spoke about Norway, for example. There are other countries right now that are best examples, I guess, in terms of plastic management. If we were to apply in Canada the best plastic management on earth today, how long would the transition be to get to a point where we knew that no plastic was going to areas that we didn't want it to go?
4:55 p.m.
Programs Director, Environmental Defence Canada
It depends on the level of ambition of the government, I suppose, and on the ability of industry and everybody to innovate and markets to adapt and whatnot. Some jurisdictions have gone very aggressively. Even in the EU, their bans are coming in 2021. They are moving very quickly.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
This is just further to the Keurig pods and the wrappers around them. Even if it says “compostable” in terms of the plastic or whatever it's made out of, there's a bit of a disclaimer there, because it says that it's only in the municipalities that are participating in the program. I'm guessing that's close to zero. How would I, as a guy recycling in Point Clark, Ontario, know if I'm in a participating municipality or not? How would I know this?
I'm not criticizing you guys; I'm just asking.
