Evidence of meeting #16 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was land.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Stephen Woodley  Co-Chair, WCPA-SSC Joint Task Force on Biodiversity and Protected Areas, International Union for the Conservation of Nature
Sigrid Kuehnemund  Lead Specialist, Oceans, World Wildlife Fund
Sue Feddema-Leonard  Executive Director, Willmore Wilderness Foundation
Eric Reder  Manitoba Campaign Director, Western Canada Wilderness Committee
Nadim Kara  Senior Program Director, Prospectors & Developers Association of Canada
John Masswohl  Director, Government and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association
Stephanie Brown  Environmental Manager, Willmore Wilderness Foundation

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Thank you very much, Nadim, for that thought-provoking approach. I am sure there will be lots of questions to probe that further.

We have a little challenge with the Canadian Cattlemen's Association. They can hear us and see us, but they can't talk to us. We do have somebody in the room, John Masswohl, who is the director of government and international relations with the organization. If he could come forward....

I had the pleasure of meeting you before at a wonderful reception you hosted. If you could do the presentation they were going to give us, it would be very helpful. They are able to hear everything that goes on here, so they can always follow up if we have a question that can't be answered by John.

You are up for 10 minutes. Thank you.

Noon

John Masswohl Director, Government and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

Thank you. I feel like the understudy coming in.

Noon

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Noon

Director, Government and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

John Masswohl

They'll tell me later what I got wrong.

Of the folks who were going to present, one is Bob Lowe. Bob is a rancher from southern Alberta. He is currently also the chair of the Alberta Beef Producers. He chairs our environment committee. It's unfortunate that you don't have him here. He speaks from first-hand experience.

At the Canadian Cattlemen's Association, we represent approximately 68,000 cattle producers across the country. As you know, we work on any issues related to cattle producers. Whether they're trade, environmental, or other issues, you name it, we're interested in helping to form good policy.

With more than 98% of farms across Canada being family owned and operated, we know that these small business owners, these producers—and that's what they are, they're small business owners—care deeply for the land under their stewardship. One of the things we often hear them saying is that they want to leave the land in better shape than it was when they got it. These are people who talk proudly about how many generations their families have spent on the land. They know that they're there for just a short time, and they want to leave that land in better shape for their kids, their grandkids, and so on.

In the time we have, we want to cover three main points.

The first is that we do need to have a healthy cattle industry to help sustain rangelands and the habitats they preserve in both public lands and private lands. Second, producers and government need to work together to find solutions for species at risk on agricultural landscapes. The third point is that investing in research, innovation, and agri-environmental programming are excellent investments and are critical for us to continue.

First, a healthy beef cattle industry plays an integral role in helping to sustain rangelands. Canadian cattle producers support a healthy, diverse agriculture landscape, which is important for economic diversity as well as in maximizing delivery of ecosystem services from the land. Beef producers utilize varied agriculture landscapes across Canada, including public and private lands, cropland, grassland, forest, shrubland, pasture land, and riparian areas. Well-run ranching operations are truly an extension of Canada's natural landscape and contribute greatly to existing ecosystems.

While healthy rangelands form the backbone of the largest agriculture industry group in Canada by providing forage for cattle, they also provide critical habitat for native species, enhance water conservation, and sequester large amounts of carbon. Furthermore, rangelands form a vital corridor for North America's migratory and native birds and many other important species.

Rangelands also benefit human society and quality of life. There are examples of this. Rangelands reduce urban water treatment costs. They provide a buffer against the effects of droughts and floods. They increase economic viability and offer tourism and recreation opportunities that stimulate local economies.

But we can't take these rangelands for granted. Today less than 40% of Canada's grasslands remain intact, and continued economic competition threatens conversion into other uses of the land.

Effective partnerships between the ranching community and conservation organizations, governments, and academic institutions are all essential to our preservation efforts. Collaborations such as these champion innovative ideas for conserving and restoring native landscapes and enhancing ranch profitability. Together, we must ensure that cattle producers maintain ranch profitability so they can maintain their role on publicly and privately owned agriculture landscapes as stewards of these threatened grassland ecosystems.

To sum up that first main theme, continued access to federal and provincial lands for grazing, the development of risk insurance, and other incentive tools that help economic parity with alternate land uses are imperative in helping to maintain these landscapes. In essence, a healthy beef cattle market can play an integral role in helping sustain ranchlands, and vice versa.

We need to find mutually acceptable approaches to managing species at risk. Whether on public or private land, species at risk often find homes on Canada's ranchlands. This speaks to the quality of habitat maintained by Canada's beef producers, although given the loss of other habitat due to factors outside the control of the beef industry, we do carry a large burden in maintaining critical habitat for Canada's species at risk.

While we support the intention of the Species at Risk Act, we encourage the federal government to find ways for those on the land to be compliant with the act in an economically feasible manner. We have to bear in mind that the species at risk on the land are there because of what the rancher is doing, not in spite of the rancher. The Canadian beef industry encourages the government to do everything possible to implement the act in a way that is truly based on the stewardship approach, as we will be able to achieve much greater success through a collaborative stewardship than through cumbersome regulation. Rewarding ranchers for good stewardship practices will be far more successful than penalizing through regulation.

We also have to keep in mind that managing for individual species will invariably harm others. Whether it's sage grouse or swift fox, we have to take a holistic approach. The act has created a loss of real and perceived landholder rights and placed unjust liability on Canada's farmers and ranchers. For example, today a rancher could be held liable if he accidentally and unintentionally harmed a species at risk through a very normal agricultural practice, such as cutting grass to use as hay to feed his cattle.

We need better clarity on implementation for landholders. We encourage the government to look at existing infrastructure to help achieve the goals of the Species at Risk Act. For example, in Alberta we have grazing leases on public lands. Producers are already committed to a grazing agreement to ensure the health of the grazing lands. This is measured and monitored and could be considered a form of compliance with the Species at Risk Act. Furthermore, there are excellent programs that exist to work with ranchers on protecting species at risk. Another example is the MULTISAR program. It's a program that works with ranchers who have species at risk on their operations to achieve beneficial habitat outcomes in a non-threatening manner.

The third area is funding research innovation for agro-environmental programs. Through research, we have found that to maintain the quality of rangeland ecosystems, from time to time a natural disturbance such as a fire is beneficial. Obviously that's a risky strategy, but something that's more economically viable and manageable is grazing. The way that cattle ranchers operate can replicate these natural disturbances. Beef producers utilize cattle to replicate the important role that bison or other large ungulates used to play in natural rangeland ecosystems.

We're continually investing and advancing our knowledge with regard to how to best manage our resources, as it's widely understood that overgrazed or undergrazed lands benefit neither the habitat nor the profitability of the rancher. The industry invests significantly in research, education, and innovation, and we encourage the federal government to continue to do so as well.

How are we for time?

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

You have about a minute and 30 seconds.

12:05 p.m.

Director, Government and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

John Masswohl

Thank you.

I'm going to jump down to the summary. One of the things that Bob really wanted to express was a concern over some of the misinformation that's out there about the beef industry.

With regard to the beef industry globally, people have tried to project a certain image that is largely false, or at best not representative of the beef sector in Canada, so it's imperative that we have comprehensive research and data. Anytime policy decisions are made, we want to make sure that sound decisions made at all levels so that we can support the continued advancement of innovation and education.

In summary, the ability of the Canadian cattle industry to positively drive the economy and conservation targets on private and public lands should not be underestimated. The Canadian beef industry is a meaningful contributor to the Canadian economy, contributing $13.6 billion to our annual GDP. At the same time, we are also a cornerstone of environmentally sound agriculture practices that can assist you in the committee's and the government's mandate to achieve Canada's environmental goals. Indeed, we believe Canada can be a world role model as a solutions-oriented beef producer, committed to sustainable environmental, social, and economic outcomes, now and for future generations.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

That was absolutely bang on 10 minutes. Thank you very much.

We have about 50 minutes of questioning, if we do two full rounds. To do that and to be fair to everyone, I am going to be very strict on the time. We have a lot of video conference people and cards won't really work, so I am going to say “one minute”, and at time I am going to call time, because we need to move on to the next questioner.

The first questioner is Robert Sopuck, and he is standing in for Ed Fast.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Thank you. I think what we have witnessed today is the two solitudes of conservation. The Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada, the Willmore Wilderness Foundation, and the Canadian Cattlemen's Association were very clear that human beings are part of the environment and very much a solution to many of our major conservation challenges. What I heard from the other groups, by and large, was that getting people out of the environment is the way to protect it.

I represent a farming and ranching constituency and I am firmly in the first camp. I want to focus on cattle production because I think the cattle industry has gotten a very bad rap that is clearly undeserved.

Interestingly, some of the very sophisticated conservation and environmental organizations in North America are starting to recognize that. In 2015, the Commission for Environmental Cooperation, which is the NAFTA environmental group, published a report called “North American Ranching Industries, Beef Cattle Trade, and Grasslands: Status and Trends”. The report was very clear that sustainably managed grasslands are absolutely critical to environmental protection in northern North America. In fact, they went on to say that grassland ranching “is one of the most sustainable forms of agriculture.”

Mr. Masswohl, why do you think society does not recognize the contributions that the ranching and agricultural communities have made to environmental conservation?

12:10 p.m.

Director, Government and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

John Masswohl

That is a thing we ask ourselves a lot. We think it comes from people who have an agenda or who make Hollywood movies, those sorts of things. People tend to get their information from celebrities as opposed to scientists.

We encourage people to come out and see. We encourage the committee to come out and see. I know you are talking about travelling, and we would love to have you come and visit some ranches. We operate a number of programs. We have our environmental stewardship awards every year, and many ranches are competing every year to get those awards. It is not hard to find winners. We think that if we can show factual information and educate people as to what is happening out in the countryside, far away from the cities, it would be very positive. We really encourage anything that can be done to improve awareness.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

In a previous life, I was one of the judges of the program you are talking about, and the conservation achievements of the ranching community are nothing short of astonishing.

I would also like to talk about a recent program by the Audubon Society called the working lands program. The Audubon Society is probably the oldest bird conservation organization in northern North America, if not the world. They have a working lands program. They finally realized that working with the ranching community in the United States—this is a U.S. program.... They are “partnering with ranchers who own remaining grasslands to develop market-based management that benefits prairie birds while sustaining the livelihoods of the ranchers.” This is a very significant statement, in my view. Sustaining the livelihood of a rural community, in this case the ranching community, is absolutely critical to maintaining the ecosystem services that grasslands provide.

Mr. Masswohl, why do you think there is a view in parts of the environmental community that getting people off the land and negatively affecting the livelihoods of rural communities is an effective way to generate conservation? Why do people believe that?

12:10 p.m.

Director, Government and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

John Masswohl

I don't know why people.... They think what they think.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

It's some people. There are some people.

12:10 p.m.

Director, Government and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

John Masswohl

I think the good news is that there are a lot of people who do know better. They are out there, and that is the sort of thing we are trying to encourage.

I think one of the things we have seen in the past—and the notes talk a bit about it—is that you have to take a holistic approach to the species. People are well intentioned, and they want to find things that are simple. They want to say, “That's the thing we need to fix there”, but the reality is that this is a complex issue. Take the word “ecosystems”. “Systems” tells you right there what you need to know about it. It is not about protecting this or that species. You have to look at everything from a broader perspective, and that is a difficult thing to explain.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

I'd like to ask Dr. Woodley a question if I could have a very short answer, because I don't have much time.

In your view, can working lands, properly managed from a conservation perspective, be considered as part of a network of protected areas?

12:15 p.m.

Co-Chair, WCPA-SSC Joint Task Force on Biodiversity and Protected Areas, International Union for the Conservation of Nature

Dr. Stephen Woodley

I think the short answer is yes, absolutely.

What we're talking about is conservation systems, which include protected areas, working landscapes, and measures for connectivity. It really involves all parties sitting down and working this out through something called “systematic conservation planning”, so the short answer is yes, absolutely.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

I really appreciate that. That's a view, I think, that needs to permeate the notion of protected lands. It's all about ecosystem integrity. Having people managing the land in a certain way and in a proper way will contribute to ecosystem integrity.

Just one last point—

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

You're not going to have time. I'm sorry about that.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Okay. Thank you very much. That's fine.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Thank you.

Mr. Aldag is next.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

John Aldag Liberal Cloverdale—Langley City, BC

I'd like to thank all of our panellists for being here today. It's great to have the variety of perspectives we've had from the industry groups and the other organizations that have been here. Thanks to all of you for bringing your various perspectives.

I am concerned about the opening statements from the member opposite. Any time we set up a discussion in terms of camps, I find that we set ourselves up for failure.

I am personally not of the opinion that we need to pit people against nature. In fact, we as a society can work together and have a strong economy and a healthy environment. That said, it's a different perspective from what our first questioner has offered, and it's the framework I'm going to use for the question I shall bring to the table.

I wanted to talk first of all to Kimberley and Sigrid. In looking at some of the work you've done as an environmental group and in looking at how people can have an interplay within natural spaces, I am really curious about your thoughts on how, within society, we can try to coordinate our efforts on the creation of protected areas and also on how we set those priority areas. Could I have your thoughts on how we can coordinate efforts between the various segments we've heard here? Could you please start with that?

12:15 p.m.

Lead Specialist, Oceans, World Wildlife Fund

Sigrid Kuehnemund

Yes. My comments here today relate to marine protected areas, so I'll frame my answer within that context.

In terms of coordinating efforts, I do believe that the federal government has to come together and take on leadership in developing a network of marine protected areas and in respecting the different regulatory tools that are available to designate marine protected areas under the Oceans Act and the National Marine Conservation Areas Act, and also with Environment Canada in terms of the migratory bird areas.

There needs to be a consideration as to how particular sites may contribute to a network by perhaps benefiting from multiple legislation. Taking as an example a migratory bird conservation area that has great conservation potential, if you were to add a buffer zone around that migratory bird conservation area through additional legislation in using the Fisheries Act to restrict gillnet fisheries, for example, you could greatly enhance the protection value and the conservation benefits of that area. I think federal governments really have to take that view in terms of how they can work together using all the tools they have available to develop the best conservation areas.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

John Aldag Liberal Cloverdale—Langley City, BC

I'd like to get your thoughts on any work you've done on identifying priority areas. We've heard from Fisheries and Oceans that they have a number of areas. We've seen through the Parks Canada system plan that they've identified a number of marine areas.

Have you identified priority areas that you feel would be ripe for some form of conservation? How do they overlie the federal government ones? I'm just trying to see what the interplay is between the work you've done and what you're aware of within the federal government.

12:20 p.m.

Lead Specialist, Oceans, World Wildlife Fund

Sigrid Kuehnemund

Absolutely. We are a strong advocate for continuing the designation process for all existing candidate sites for marine protected areas and national marine conservation areas. We are a strong advocate for protection within the Lancaster Sound proposed NMCA.

We are working on sites that we have a particular interest in. That relates to our work with connecting communities with MPAs and ensuring that MPAs deliver community benefits. As an example, we have a campaign whereby we are advocating for marine protected area status for the Sambro Ledges, just outside of Halifax.

We have some focus on specific sites that are of interest to the WWF and that we will push for in working with the federal government through their designation processes.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

John Aldag Liberal Cloverdale—Langley City, BC

I'll leave it there, but I would invite all of the groups to please share with the committee any materials you'd like to provide to us in writing if you have priority areas, so that we can have the benefit of the work you've done as we have these deliberations.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

You have one minute.