Evidence of meeting #40 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Smol  Professor and Canada Research Chair in Environmental Change, Queen's University, As an Individual
Robert Larocque  Vice-President, Climate Change, Environment and Labour, Forest Products Association of Canada
Pam Cholak  Director, Stakeholder Relations, Alberta's Industrial Heartland Association
Ed Gibbons  Councillor, City of Edmonton, and Chair, Alberta's Industrial Heartland Association
Nadine Blaney  Executive Director, Fort Air Partnership, Alberta's Industrial Heartland Association

4:05 p.m.

Professor and Canada Research Chair in Environmental Change, Queen's University, As an Individual

Dr. John Smol

I don't deal at that level of the monitoring program. Certainly that is the direction I think most people would feel it should be going. What are the hazards associated with that? To deal with that you have to deal with the risks cumulatively, which is what I was trying to get at. I'm not offering any simple solution here.

The Europeans have started to look at this in a more constructive way. They have several documents from a few years ago when they realized they have to deal with these cocktails to assess these things in a more scientific way. It's not a simple solution; I'm aware of that. It's often multiplicative too.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

When you say cocktails do you mean multiple substances?

4:05 p.m.

Professor and Canada Research Chair in Environmental Change, Queen's University, As an Individual

Dr. John Smol

Yes, multiple substances.

We tend to be dealing with most of our stressors individually, and that's a real problem, I think. That's the first cut-off in doing something.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Do you have an example of one of these cocktails?

4:05 p.m.

Professor and Canada Research Chair in Environmental Change, Queen's University, As an Individual

Dr. John Smol

For example, almost everything I deal with...and it's not just the chemical cocktails, on top of that you put things like climate change and stuff. I'm quite surprised. You would think that, of several stressors, some would be additive and some would be antagonistic, if you like. I deal with climate change. Virtually every stressor I deal with seems to be worse in a warmer climate in Canada. It's quite remarkable actually, but that's now putting on another whole other type of stress. For example, you could be working where there are industrial emissions and you have, for example, PAHs, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, being released, which is a carcinogen and so on and so forth. Often those same industries are releasing mercury, for example, in a cocktail of other types of metals. We come up with these analyses on what should be the limit for the PAHs, but we're doing it in isolation from all the other things that are also being released.

Very often some of our assessments are based on overly optimistic scenarios. Very often it's from laboratories where they do ecotoxicological studies, and very often in the real world out there, the situation is far worse and there are other stresses that we haven't even thought of. If you want to quote some people, we have the known knowns, the known unknowns, and the unknown unknowns, and that is quite apparent also in environmental issues. We have some known unknowns, and we have a whole lot of unknown unknowns.

I tend to be an optimist in most things. Although people have called me just overly pessimistic about environmental issues, if I look back on my career of 30 years, I have been overly optimistic on things. Things are generally worse than we think they are in the environment, and we have to be prepared for surprises. Nature is slow to forget our mistakes, and very often if we pass a certain threshold, it's very hard to go backwards.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Thank you very much. We appreciate that.

Go ahead, Mr. Genuis.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to welcome witnesses from the best riding in the country. Mr. Gerretsen misidentified it, but we do have witnesses from the best riding.

Seriously, I am very honoured to be the MP for the heartland area, and it was great this summer to be able to take some of my colleagues on a tour of the heartland. I'd encourage everyone, all the MPs here, to take an opportunity to visit my riding in the heartland and see the great work being done there.

I really appreciated the testimony from all of you, but I'm going to focus my questions on the witnesses from the heartland.

Ms. Cholak, you talked specifically about this issue of the importance of consistency in regulation, and this is a recurring theme that I hear. Yes, it's about getting the regulations right, but it's also about certainty of timelines and really the need not to have situations where regulations are constantly changing, so that industry says, “Well, this is what the regulation is today, but it might be something different tomorrow or something else the day after that.” It's very hard to make investment decisions in a climate like that.

Could you speak a bit more to the importance of clarity and consistency when it comes to regulation, to industry being able to make long-term investment decisions knowing what the rules are going to be over a long period of time?

4:10 p.m.

Councillor, City of Edmonton, and Chair, Alberta's Industrial Heartland Association

Ed Gibbons

I'll just start.

We have 30 large industries from Shell to Dow to Sherritt to Agrium, and they actually work very well together. They work with the team that's on the TV to present as well. We have ATCO in there, and ATCO gas not only draws in the water and provides the water to 90% of the industry; it also is going to build a gas-fired electrical plant. Its drive is that it comes into areas not only for business but also the fact that we have the caverns in our area, so we can put the propane, we can put the gas down into the ground and ATCO can bring it up, as it does.

Certainly regulations are not only a federal issue, but they are a provincial issue, and also municipal. We have to work together. We have to be able to work and bring this forward on a timely basis. Right now we have 33 billion dollars' worth of assets in the area. We have another just over $20 billion being built right now. Depending on what happens in the next few months with the government doing the PDP program, which is propane to propylene, we need to be able to bring that to the table as quickly as possible.

4:10 p.m.

Director, Stakeholder Relations, Alberta's Industrial Heartland Association

Pam Cholak

If I may just supplement, thank you for the question, and I have to say I'm very proud to live in the best riding, along with you.

Thank you to the members for having us here.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Eglinski Conservative Yellowhead, AB

Are you talking about Yellowhead?

4:10 p.m.

Director, Stakeholder Relations, Alberta's Industrial Heartland Association

Pam Cholak

I do love spending some time in all those great Alberta ridings.

I appreciate the question because, for us, certainty becomes very important. We don't operate in a bubble. We actually operate in the global marketplace. We are looking for investment dollars that are not just local and not just Canadian dollars. We are competing in that global market.

Certainty becomes important. The unintended consequence that I'm talking about means that, even when you look at whether it be environmental regulation—understanding that there will always be changes that need to be looked at, because we evolve over time—be it industry, be it as communities, and we need to make sure that we're current on things.... But when you don't provide some opportunity for that capital dollar to understand that this is the playing field that you operate in and that you will have some certainty around the kind of application process and the kind of regulatory process.... It's not just dollars, but it also means that you understand how the rules of the game are going to impact your business.

That becomes very important, on a comparative scale, as we look at it as a Canadian model. When we're talking to our global investors—and that's what our organization does—they're not necessarily concerned about, at the outset, Fort Saskatchewan, Alberta. They are concerned about the Canadian landscape, first of all, and how it works and the consequence of all kinds of regulation.

If it takes a long time to get a pipeline, it creates a threat that it might take a long time on environmental regulation. It might take a long time on health regulation. That creates a motive that says, they're not quite sure what they want to do. That's why timeliness becomes absolutely critical. Nothing's guaranteed, and industry and capital dollars don't expect that, but they do need to know, for the longer term, what it looks like in a Canadian, provincial, and municipal landscape.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Those are excellent points, thank you. If I could just pick up on this issue of the benefit of international investment, could you just comment quickly on this issue of regulations that are competitive across jurisdictions?

Obviously we are competing with other jurisdictions that may have different kinds of environmental regulations from ours. Being sensitive to the fact that there are lots of other criteria we think about with environmental regulations, how do we develop them in a way that's competitive relative to other jurisdictions with which we're competing for investment?

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Give a 30-second answer, please, a very quick answer.

4:15 p.m.

Councillor, City of Edmonton, and Chair, Alberta's Industrial Heartland Association

Ed Gibbons

Within our eight municipalities there are five voting members. We work very hard with government levels of all kinds.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

That wasn't necessarily as fulsome as you might like, but we ran out of time. We may get back to that.

Go ahead, Ms. Duncan.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Thank you to all of you for appearing. Of course I'm well aware of the airshed groups, and I commend you. You have a good number of them across the province. I'm hoping I'll have time to ask you a couple of questions about the federal role.

But my first questions are to Dr. Smol. Thank you very much for coming. I know, regrettably, your colleague in much of your work, Dr. Schindler, just wasn't well enough to attend. I understand he's going to send a brief.

I'm aware of your work, from a distance. This is the first time we've met, and I'm happy you could come. On long-range monitoring in the oil sands and the identification, as I understand, that it may well be that some of those pollutants are going farther afield than we had thought, and that there may be some accumulation across projects, can you speak a bit about that?

When I was on the environment committee previously, we did a study on the impact of the oil sands on water. One of the frustrations voiced by the scientists who testified was that, while there is some research out in the field about the accumulation of these substances and the long-range transmission, there's not a lot of timely response by the government in regulation, for example, of PAHs and mercury and so forth.

I would appreciate if you could talk a bit about the relationship between the kind of research you do in collaboration with Environment Canada and so forth, and whether or not you think there is timely response to your findings by the authorities.

4:15 p.m.

Professor and Canada Research Chair in Environmental Change, Queen's University, As an Individual

Dr. John Smol

Yes, thank you.

I've been involved now in oil sands research for a few years, working closely with Environment Canada, and this stemmed to some extent from the time when I was on the panel where we realized there were some issues with the monitoring. One of the biggest problems we have in environmental work is basically the lack of monitoring, and the only way we can get back in time to make up for missed monitoring opportunities is some of the work that I do with Environment Canada. We work on lake sediments and we track changes over time. We can go back hundreds, even thousands, of years. One of the biggest things we have to worry about is what the baseline is. What is natural?

Just to summarize some of this work we've done, we were able to show that in fact PAHs in this case, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, are in fact increasing in the oil sands—they seem to be going in lock-step with the oil sands operation—and are actually being transported by air farther than I think most people suspected. In our first paper we published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, at least one of our lakes was 90 kilometres away and we could see a record.

That is one aspect of it. We're trying to make up for missed monitoring opportunities. This is only one of the many contaminants that are out there. I spoke earlier of this soup of contaminants. In some ways, this is a more optimistic viewpoint. I think we're trying to push this information forward to show that there are actually other costs or other environmental costs that may not be accounted for, and we came to the story late because this work has all been happening in the last few years. I am a little more optimistic now with the amount of research and the peer-reviewed publications coming out. I think there's certainly a scientific base coming forward for what we can do in that part of the world.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

We're both somewhat of the same vintage, although I won't suggest you're the same age as me. We have similar hair colour.

I'm aware that the federal level used to have a wonderful program called the Canada Centre for Inland Waters. Of course, the federal government also used to fund the Experimental Lakes Area. I wonder if you can speak about whether you think it would be important for the federal government to be reinvesting in that level of research and development on pollution control.

4:15 p.m.

Professor and Canada Research Chair in Environmental Change, Queen's University, As an Individual

Dr. John Smol

The cheapest thing we can do is high-quality research, and to spend the money in a meaningful manner to get policy-relevant research done that's accessible to the international community.

Certainly the Experimental Lakes Area is something I was fairly close with. That was an outstanding facility. It's being reinvigorated now. It's been there since 1968, I think. It showed what the problems are out there. It was able to show it in a real, very unique kind of setting. It was basically an outdoor laboratory working on lakes extensively. We learned an awful lot from places like the Experimental Lakes Area.

We learned an awful lot from federal government scientists from Environment Canada, Department of Fisheries and Oceans, and also Parks Canada. They were really the backbone of a lot of the research programs. This has really declined dramatically, and that's really a shame. As I think I said, we have some of the most outstanding, dedicated, skilled scientists in the federal government service, and I really think that needs reinvigorating. They can be a major part of the solution if they're given the chance because certainly the quality is there.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

You spoke, Dr. Smol, about the need for a baseline. I know there's been a lot of frustration in my province that we're just starting to do some of this research now. I can share with you that it was only because of my community organization, which hired one of David Schindler's associates who did the 100-year core sampling of two lakes outside of Edmonton and proved that mercury and other toxins were bioaccumulating associated with the expansion of coal-fired power—and that report being internationally published—that we finally got the first mercury control regs in Canada on coal-fired power.

That showed to me that even though there was both federal and provincial responsibility, they were falling down in doing just the basic monitoring of the pollution loading. Would there be a bigger role the federal government could play in ensuring that we do more of this baseline work, particularly with new kinds of industrial developments?

4:20 p.m.

Professor and Canada Research Chair in Environmental Change, Queen's University, As an Individual

Dr. John Smol

I think definitely the role is for the federal government to do that. As I hinted at, it's not really university-based work. It's not part of our funding structure, it's not part of our mandates, to do just basic monitoring. I think it is really the role of the federal government to do that, and to have scientific oversight. You can always have help from university people in the scientific peer review, but this is something that's absolutely the underpinnings of an evidence-based, scientific basis to the future of our country.

I see a red sign up there so I think I'm supposed to stop.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

That's okay. That's good. I wanted you to finish your thought.

Mr. Amos.

December 1st, 2016 / 4:20 p.m.

Liberal

William Amos Liberal Pontiac, QC

Thank you to all of our witnesses, including those in Edmonton. I really appreciate the time and effort that you've put into this.

Dr. Smol, thank you for all that you've contributed over many years to our understanding of Canada's environment. It's great to be in the same room as you. I've followed your career with interest, and Dr. Schindler's as well. It's too bad he can't be here. I recall meeting him back in 1999 when I was advising the former federal environment minister. His impact has been incredible as well.

I want to ask you first about data access. Two days ago, we had the pleasure of having Environment Canada's enforcement branch with us. The discussion went to the issue of the ability of the Canadian public to access all forms of data in relation to enforcement. Obviously, there is also the national pollutant release inventory, which provides certain types of really important pollutant data.

I wonder if you could comment on the availability, the usability, and the need for improvement to the data that is provided by Environment Canada under CEPA.

4:20 p.m.

Professor and Canada Research Chair in Environmental Change, Queen's University, As an Individual

Dr. John Smol

Over the last year or so, we've certainly seen some improvements in availability of data, for example, in the oil sands region, and so forth. Usability might be a better.... Definitely, I think to have your data believed by the world at large, just like scientific data, it has to be publicly available and it has to pass the peer review test for quality and the way it was collected.

The word “usability” is a good one. I've talked to many people who talk about binders and binders of data sometimes being submitted from some monitoring programs, and it's often not in a standardized format and has not been assessed in any scientific way. There isn't the oversight of looking at those data. There could really be some major improvements to the format and the usability of the data.

I think public access to the data is critical, and that's public access with a relatively easy way of accessing it and with an understanding of the methodology and all the other information you need to assess it properly. We still have a long way to go. I think we're starting to head in the right direction.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

William Amos Liberal Pontiac, QC

Earlier this spring I read news reports of studies that had been conducted by Environment Canada, I think by Dr. Liggio. I imagine there was collaboration external to government on the issue of secondary organic aerosols and air pollutants that were being found in heretofore unknown high levels emanating from the oil sands. In particular, they were measuring 45 to 84 tonnes per day of these secondary organic aerosols, which is the same range as what is produced by Toronto, which is around 67 tonnes per day. These chemicals cause lung cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc.

I wonder if you had any involvement in that or if you know those studies. Can you speak to their relevance in the context of a CEPA review?