Evidence of meeting #73 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was school.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte
Thank you for that. I gave a little longer there.
Let's not forget Ms. Prince, who I'm sure is wanting to share all sorts of information with us.
10:10 a.m.
Curator, Buxton National Historic Site and Museum
I'm fine. I am enjoying listening.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
September 26th, 2017 / 10:10 a.m.
Liberal
William Amos Liberal Pontiac, QC
Thank you.
A number of the discussions we've had with previous witnesses have gone to the issue of the distinct challenges that rural communities face in preserving their built heritage, the socio-economic disparities as between urban communities and rural communities.
The riding I represent, Pontiac, is one in which, in the regional county municipality of Pontiac, and also in the regional municipal county of the Gatineau Valley, the average per capita income is $22,000. There's not a lot of private capital there to preserve any built heritage, but that doesn't mean that the heritage that is there, much of which is foundational in terms of the national capital's own success, is any less important.
I want to direct my question towards Mr. Berg-Dick, around what mechanisms, by way of incentives and financing, would be most appropriate to ensure that rural communities are best able to take advantage of fiscal outlays made possible by the federal government.
10:10 a.m.
Consulting Tax Economist, MEKA and Associates, As an Individual
I think you've highlighted an important point about any particular program and its impact at a national level, a provincial level, and a municipal or even an urban/rural level. If you look at the distinctions between tax incentives and grants, tax incentives typically don't have that kind of thing built in, unless you get into a very detailed kind of tilting of something. The tax system is not really designed for that.
If, for example, recognizing that there may not be the same opportunities in some areas, you want to direct more funding to particular geographical areas or areas with particular challenges, then you have a better potential to do so, I think, when specifying within a program what kind of allocation you want. Again, there may be an area on the urban side in which there is a great interest in preservation of various buildings. Some things may be happening there that may not be happening in a rural area.
From a commercial perspective, you always want to have projects that are successful. I guess part of the challenge within a rural area is exactly what is available on a commercial basis, if you're going to go that route. If not, what is the community planning to do with that project? What kind of funding is there? It's the mix between commercial use versus other uses versus the educational use and the way you balance these uses and what level of funding you want to have directed towards each one of those different channels within the Canadian context.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
William Amos Liberal Pontiac, QC
To follow that up, I didn't see any written brief from you. Obviously we'll have the transcript of what you said today, but because I think the fiscal outlay aspect of this study is going to be really important, if you have any more detailed thoughts around what the best options are, we would welcome those.
10:10 a.m.
Consulting Tax Economist, MEKA and Associates, As an Individual
Sure. I think you will have the opportunity to talk with Chris Wiebe about the National Trust and some of the work that has been done in that context. There is some background work there, which he'll be presenting, that has some of those aspects of looking at different grant and tax options and impacts.
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
William Amos Liberal Pontiac, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Moran, thank you for your presentation. It's an extremely sensitive topic, and you delivered it in an extremely sensitive manner. I appreciate that.
I want to ask on the public record what I asked you privately at our break.
Obviously we are not, in this committee, engaged in a formal consultation process with indigenous peoples. That would be necessary in order to make recommendations for the TRC heritage aspect. What is the extent of consultation that has happened already, and to what degree can this committee rely upon the consultation undertaken by the TRC as regards conservation of heritage from residential school settings?
10:15 a.m.
Director, University of Manitoba, National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation
It's a very important question.
The commission was many things, but at its heart what it did was give a microphone to survivors of the residential schools. We gave the microphone to 7,000 survivors across the country. That's how many statements we recorded. It was the largest engagement with residential school survivors in the history of this country.
The calls to action are the roll-up of all the hopes and aspirations of the survivor community and indigenous peoples across the country. That is the authority on which the TRC issued those calls to action. The commission talked to many people and reflected at length on what needs to happen. Those calls to action are directed at all of us as individuals, organizations, and parliamentarians, and of course, as a country.
We know there's broad support for implementing those calls to action. That said, they are not a one-size-fits-all answer. Throughout the calls to action around heritage preservation or around cemeteries, the conversation with communities, with survivors, has to continue. We can't just impose a one-size-fits-all solution on it, but we have to work very closely with communities to make sure that the ceremonies are properly respected, that the distance between that residential school and the community narrative is properly respected, and that communities are fully empowered to tell the story in the way they wish.
In the case of St. Michael's, that might be the destruction of the school. In other cases, that might be the preservation of the school. We have to enable that conversation to occur. That's one of our great national opportunities at the federal level, to enable that conversation to occur.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Thank you.
Mr. Berg-Dick, I was very interested in hearing about your work with the income tax division and small business. As much as I would like to ask you about the government's small business tax proposals, I will reluctantly restrain myself, given that the chair will probably rule me out of order.
My question is for Mr. Moran. As you well know, because you've been there and I've been there, I have the—I'll call it an honour—with a lot of difficulties attached, to have the community of Birtle in my consistency. There is a residential school there. Do I understand correctly that we should do whatever we can to preserve every residential school? Could you clarify that?
10:15 a.m.
Director, University of Manitoba, National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation
We have to understand the difference between preservation and commemoration. We absolutely have to commemorate every single residential school in this country. That needs to be a national initiative.
In terms of preservation, we have not preserved every single residential school in this country. We have to remember that the remaining 17, in some form or another, are a shadow of the more than 140 different institutions that were recognized across this country. We are down to the crumbs of the system right now. That's where there's a particular sense of urgency around coming up with a strategy to preserve whatever is left.
In the case of Birtle, it's particularly interesting, though, and I want to highlight a particular challenge with that. Over the course of time, as the federal government or the churches got out of the business of running residential schools, some of these properties were divested. That particular school ended up in Kijiji, as I recall, being sold by a private landowner. Some of my colleagues and I had a quick chat about whether we could buy it. It really wasn't all that expensive. It was $100,000, or—
10:20 a.m.
Director, University of Manitoba, National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation
Yes, it was $79,000.
The building itself was quite derelict. It was probably a public safety hazard. So what do we do? Do we buy it and then put a big chain-link fence around it and say nobody can visit it because it's dangerous? That is where we need a strategy and we really have to think about how we're going to preserve these places.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
I was struck by something Mr. Brandt said. I actually wrote it down word for word. He said, “it takes the use of a place to keep it going.” In the case of the Birtle school, to use that as an example, there can only be minimal use of that place, as I understand it, unless there's massive reconstruction. How do we deal with a school such as that, given the use requirement?
10:20 a.m.
Director, University of Manitoba, National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation
We have to recognize is that these are sites of conscience. We hold on to things because we need to do certain ceremonies. In some ways, while it's not a complete parallel, we even have cemeteries so we can go and visit a loved one or someone we've said goodbye to.
We will be trying to figure out this history of residential schools in this country for generations, the intergenerational trauma that has been passed on to survivors, and frankly, the intergenerational trauma that has been passed on to this country as a whole, because we're not healed collectively as a society from this overall experiment that we tried. It will be ongoing, and at the very least, people need to understand that these schools existed, that there is a place to go and see that there was an actual school there. For indigenous peoples, it might be just a place to put some tobacco down and say a prayer. For non-indigenous Canadians, it might be a place to reflect on this history that we have.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
What's interesting about Birtle again, in the town, the agricultural community, there is the Birdtail Country Museum and the local community, the non-aboriginal community, has taken it upon themselves to do what they can to preserve the history of the residential school. I had a very moving visit to that museum and the curator—all volunteers, nobody gets paid—told me about the aboriginal people who go there to look at the records and the emotion that is generated from those records. So in this very tiny prairie community there is a kind of reconciliation going on that is little known, done by volunteers, and the school stands over the county. You've seen it, and it's very conspicuous and tells a story that is quite profound, so I appreciate your answers, Mr. Moran.
I'd like to ask Ms. Prince a question. Can you expand on the shortcomings of Parks Canada in terms of museums and heritage conservation? What are they not doing and what should they be doing?
10:20 a.m.
Curator, Buxton National Historic Site and Museum
I guess since we are designated under the Parks Canada umbrella, but we're not owned and operated, that's one of the things that I and the alliance feel has been neglected. It's very unfortunate that they are not investing in us, because when we were first designated as a national historic site there were funds allotted to assist us and other sites to help with conservation, to help with heritage recording, to help with documenting some of our buildings etc. Now that has totally been lost because the mandate has been changed. It almost feels like they are not really turning their backs on the non-national historic sites.... Well, in some way they are, but it's because of the budget cuts. I feel that they need to recognize us under the same umbrella as they embrace their other national historic sites, and parks as well.
Did I answer your question?
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Yes. I have another one for you as well. Do you think that Parks Canada has the in-house expertise to deal effectively with heritage conservation?
I live right next door to a national park in Manitoba, and I find that most Parks staff are sort of natural history, ecology, and environment oriented, as am I. Do you think that heritage preservation is given short shrift within Parks Canada?
10:20 a.m.
Curator, Buxton National Historic Site and Museum
I do. I really do, because there are so many parks, as you say, that they are really focusing on, as opposed to the other wonderful buildings and conservation that can be done. Right now they are doing the train station, Union Station in Toronto. That is a national historic site and they have invested in that, but it has taken a long time to come to that.
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte
Thank you. I'm being a little generous because we do have a bit of time.
Mr. Aldag.
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
John Aldag Liberal Cloverdale—Langley City, BC
Ms. Prince, I appreciate the perspective that you shared as a privately owned national historic site. I'm wondering if you've used a program, such as the national cost-share program that Parks Canada administers, that gives money to sites such as yours. That's what that program is designed for.
What I'd like to know is for a third party site, one that isn't owned and operated by Parks Canada, do you feel you are actually able to take advantage of programs that are out there, such as the cost-share program, and what would you identify as the barriers to an organization like yours in accessing those types of programs?
10:25 a.m.
Curator, Buxton National Historic Site and Museum
One of the big dilemmas that we found at our site in particular was the limited funds in that program when we tried to access it. The other one was the fact that you can't start construction, or whatever, until you have funding. Our 1861 school, for example, was in dire need and we needed to do something quickly, and that program we had applied for wasn't going to happen until much later on. So we lost that funding and we had to try to find other sources of funding.
We tried all of those different avenues, but we are such a small community and I think they look at the bigger picture. Because the other places that do apply have better visitation, more visibility, as opposed to this small underground railroad museum in southwest Ontario, it is hard for us to vie for those big dollars against some of the bigger organizations and sites.
We try to do what we can.
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
John Aldag Liberal Cloverdale—Langley City, BC
Excellent. I'm glad you're out there trying.
Mr. Moran, you mentioned a couple of times this idea about the 17 existing residential schools. I'm wondering if your organization or anyone has led a discussion with those communities to get a sense of which ones are willing to retain the schools and which ones are wishing to see the last physical traces of them removed from their communities. Has that work been done yet, or is that all part of this work that needs to happen going forward?