Evidence of meeting #88 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was departments.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
Do we do that, or does the government do that?
Andrew Hayes Principal, Office of the Auditor General
I think that, as the commissioner suggested, this might be a question the Treasury Board Secretariat might be best positioned to answer. What we are required to do is evaluate and examine the contributions that the departmental sustainable development strategies will make to the achievement of the goals of the federal strategy. In so doing, when we're looking at the 26 right now, we have an idea of how we are going to do it. With 90, it becomes a bit more challenging.
What's important is to recognize that we will do that work in the context of the way the strategies are prepared, and we haven't seen them yet.
I think, then, that when the commissioner is talking about standardization, there are two elements. The first is the timing of the reporting. If reports are coming in at different times across the board, it will be difficult for us to grab results, make them comparable, and make the messages clear to everybody. The second part is, as the commissioner mentioned, to have some consistent topics or consistent information coming through.
Conservative
Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB
I'll go back to specifics. When you talked about 20% versus 80%, what did you find in the 20% that made you say that these are doing some things? You mentioned some greening of things, but there must have been some positive things you found somebody doing, in that audit report.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
I'm really sorry. I don't remember talking about 20% and 80%.
If we're talking about the strategic environmental assessment cabinet directive, what we found was that most of the time it was not applied. We found a couple of departments that did a good job. Those were Parks Canada and the Public Health Agency of Canada. They were taking the cabinet directive and applying it properly both to their minister and to cabinet. Many of the other departments were not doing so.
Conservative
Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB
Tell me about the ones that were. What were they doing differently?
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
You would have to ask them why they were different. I would suspect part of it was leadership. They saw the cabinet directive and said, “We're supposed to follow that. Let's do it.” Then, I think political will within the department is part of it.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte
Martin, I'm sorry. You've done a good job and used the six minutes, sir.
Mr. Gerretsen.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
Thank you very much.
Commissioner, can you speak to why you think it is important that the individual departments create their own strategies?
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
If we're going to move to a sustainable development world, if we're going to try to achieve sustainable development and the sustainable development goals, each department should be looking at the SDGs, the ones that apply to them, and figuring out how they are going to help Canada reach those international commitments. They should be thinking about how they are going to incorporate environmental, economic, and social aspects, opportunities and impacts, into all the decisions they make. If I were creating what a departmental sustainable development strategy would be, those would be two big criteria that I would use.
Andrew already mentioned that the departmental sustainable development strategies are supposed to show how they're supporting the federal sustainable development strategy. I'll be looking at both the principles and the purpose in those departmental strategies to see whether the departments are going....
Greening of operations is very important. I don't mean to make that sound as though it's not. It is very important, but the Department of Finance should be looking at every budget decision and asking itself what's the SD impact. Similarly, the Department of National Defence should be looking at every one of its decisions in terms of the social, economic, and environmental impacts of that decision.
December 5th, 2017 / 9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
Further to that, what do you see as the importance of making sure that all three of those pillars are properly accounted for or healthy? Do you see it as a detriment to the other two if one is superior, or vice versa?
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
That's the whole principle of sustainable development. I would argue that, in the past, economics was the only thing looked at. Then we added the social aspect. Usually socio-economic goes together. That's the analysis that's done. That's the lens taken on most decisions, and most decisions don't have a lens that includes the environmental lens. When we include that, at least we're aware of what the opportunities and impacts will be of making that decision on all three parts of the sustainable development stool.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
You mentioned the importance of standardizing the reporting process, and Mr. Shields was talking a bit about it as well. That makes a lot of sense to me. It helps to make the information very coherent in terms of the delivery back.
Do you also apply that to the standardizing of the development of the individual strategies? Would you insist that although the individual departments are developing their own strategies, there should also be a standardized approach to the way they develop them? If so, would that come from your office?
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
It would not come from our office.
Liberal
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
I would encourage that there be some form of standardization in the development of departmental sustainable development strategies. Questions they could ask themselves are: “How are our decisions, programs, and assets delivering on our international commitments; how are we applying the strategic environmental assessment tool; how are we supporting the federal sustainable development strategy?”
Those could be some of the questions they'd ask themselves in their sustainable development strategy as they're preparing it.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
What do you see from a cost-benefit perspective between red tape or the bureaucratic processes versus greater accountability and oversight? Could you speak to the benefits of the bill?
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
If Canada is going to achieve the sustainable development goals that it has agreed to achieve, departments have to change a little in the way they think about things. They need to start thinking about things from the three angles: social, economic, and environmental. That has a huge benefit, and I believe the costs will be pretty minimal.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
Can you give an example of how a department might change that?
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
They would apply the strategic environmental assessment cabinet directive to all their decisions. That would be number one, a very easy one. It's already there. It's something that, according to Ms. Duncan, is enforceable, and they are not doing it, which means that when a decision comes to a minister, particularly to a minister but even to cabinet, they are looking at the social and economic aspects, but where's the environmental opportunity and impact? It's not assessed.
Principal, Sustainable Development Strategies, Audits and Studies, Office of the Auditor General
I could just add that over the years there has been debate on whether or not to have separate sustainable development strategies or include sustainability within the expenditure management system, as being integral to the departments' existing business plans and strategies. It was felt that we needed these separate strategies, at least for the time being, to make them come to life and be more explicit rather than be buried within a broader context.
I'm not sure that helps to answer your question.
NDP
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Madam Commissioner, I notice that a principle has been added in, the principle of openness and transparency, and yet nowhere in the statute is there a requirement to consult the public beyond the advisory group, unlike the case with the cabinet directive, which requires the engagement of the public in doing sustainable development assessments of policy, spending, and so forth.
Is that perhaps a problem? It's a principle, but the act doesn't even reflect that principle. It could potentially be added in, and I'm going to be making suggestions how to do it. It is interesting, though, that all these principles are added in, but then the act is not amended to actually deliver on the principle of openness and transparency.