Evidence of meeting #9 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was targets.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte
Thank you very much for that. I think that gives us a clearer picture of what needs to be done.
Thank you, Nathan.
The next person is Mr. Amos.
April 12th, 2016 / 12:15 p.m.
Liberal
William Amos Liberal Pontiac, QC
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to all our witnesses. I really appreciate the consideration that you are providing to us. Having an international perspective as we re-evaluate the Federal Sustainable Development Act here in Canada is so valuable.
I'm going to focus my questions specifically on Dr. Gunton's comments just because I think that I really want to get very practical and concrete in terms of the Canadian context and what the federal government needs to do in terms of legislative and institutional change.
Before I do though, I'll just take one sentence because I couldn't agree more with my colleague Mr. Cullen's comment about the fifth dimension, and my colleague Mr. Sopuck's remarks around the Kuznets curve. I would simply point out that the evaluation, the econometric methodology that is Kuznets curve analysis is highly controversial; it is not settled in academia, and the relationship between a country's GDP and income versus environmental outcomes is totally.... It's not unsubstantiated but not a matter of settled discussion, simply to be fair to the issue. I'll park that issue now.
Dr. Gunton, you have experience as a senior civil servant. You understand how government systems work behind the facade of politicians. What would you recommend to this committee as we contemplate making recommendations, both legislative- and policy-wise? What would you recommend be done beyond simply saying whole-of-government approach, or we need central agencies to be more involved? What specifically in terms of central agency involvement within the federal government would you like to see? What specific roles do you think need to be fulfilled and in what specific departments?
12:15 p.m.
Professor, Director of Resource and Environmental Planning, School of Resource and Environmental Management, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
On the question of a central agency, you need to elevate sustainable development into a central function as opposed to being done largely within a branch within a particular ministry.
Really, the key is the need to set clear targets. We prepared the draft legislation that would form the basis for the Federal Sustainable Development Act. There were some elements in our draft which were left out in the act that was passed. I think you should have a look at those.
First, we suggested that there would be a requirement to develop targets for every dimension of sustainable development, including the economy. I want to address that it does need integration with the economy; that those targets would be set in the regulations covering the areas of sustainable development, short, medium, and long term; and that there is a capacity to set the regulations. But they were never set.
Second, there was a requirement for monitoring the progress and forecasting the degree to which those targets are going to be met, which we recommended. That was partly done but not fully done. You need to monitor and forecast to see whether you are meeting the objectives.
Third, there was a requirement we suggested that you had to respond if the targets were not being met. You had to respond as to why and come up with an alternative strategy or revisions to the strategy to show how they would be changed to ensure you got back on track, in the short, medium, and long term.
Those are some of the key provisions that were in the original draft we prepared back around 2005-06.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
William Amos Liberal Pontiac, QC
Would you have any comments about the specific role of the Privy Council Office?
12:20 p.m.
Professor, Director of Resource and Environmental Planning, School of Resource and Environmental Management, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
Not specifically. That's something that has to be worked out with the government, but clearly the responsibility for sustainable development strategies has to be accountable to the highest levels in government. Whether that should be to a senior cabinet committee through the PMO, that's something to be worked out internally within governance as to the best reporting mechanism for that.
Having it right now at a low level within a particular ministry is obviously not the most successful way to go about it.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
William Amos Liberal Pontiac, QC
Regarding your point about how not all aspects of the private member's bill that the Suzuki Foundation and you helped draft were implemented, it's my understanding that one of the reasons that the commissioner or the reason that the commissioner is not an independent actor is because that would have required a budgetary outlay, which wouldn't have been allowable pursuant to the rules of private members' bills.
In hindsight it's kind of interesting. As I understand it, the commissioner is—and correct me if I'm wrong, Ms. Gelfand—actually appointed by the Auditor General, which shelters it in certain circumstances from the Governor in Council providing that nomination.
I wonder if you would comment on the appropriateness of that circumstance. Would you recommend having it become an independent parliamentary agent appointed by GIC or do you think it should remain under the Auditor General?
12:20 p.m.
Professor, Director of Resource and Environmental Planning, School of Resource and Environmental Management, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
I don't think it is critical as to where it is. I think the commissioner is doing an excellent job. There are constraints. If there are no measurable targets and objectives, it's hard for the commissioner to evaluate progress. You have to go back to the starting point, have some clear objectives and measurable targets that can be used to measure the success of our policies.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte
Thank you very much. The discussion is a wonderful one. It probably will take several days if we get into detail, but thank you for that quick answer.
Next, we're going to our second round with Mr. Bossio.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON
As everyone else has communicated, I thank you all very much for being a part of this discussion that is so important to all of us around this table to find solutions to build a long-term sustainable society.
I really enjoyed some of the specifics that are being outlined here, in particular some of Dr. Gunton's comments around short-, medium-, and long-term targets. He talked about a strategy to document how those targets will be met and a revised strategy if those objectives are not achieved, and being controlled by a central agency.
Because Germany and Wales have now gotten to that stage, would you agree that this would be the transition that we should be looking at, to have measurable indicators, to have it controlled under a central agency, and to very strictly measure those targets and then monitor if those targets are being met?
Could you speak to that, Peter first and then Günther?
12:20 p.m.
Wales Commissioner for Sustainable Futures (2011-16) and Chair of the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, As an Individual
I'm happy to come in.
Yes, absolutely. When I heard the analysis and the principles being set out, they absolutely chimed with our experience in terms of what has not worked in Wales up to now and why we put in place this new legislation. I think a lot of those principles are absolutely at the centre of what you need to consider in terms of the revision that you are looking at, and it certainly applies to the approach that we've taken in Wales.
I think a new government coming in Wales—there will be a new government in May—will have to set out very clear milestones against each of those indicators I mentioned in my presentation. They will be held to account against those milestones, against those indicators, or be reported against them, and also they'll have independent audit by the future generations commissioner and the audit office in terms of their performance against them. So, yes, absolutely, it really did chime against our experience.
I just want to add one final point against the previous comments. We're a country that has a history of wealth being generated through the exploitation of our natural resources. We were at the heart of the industrial revolution that sent coal around the world. We know the impact of unfettered economic development, and our commitment to a prosperous Wales is a commitment that is based on an integrated approach of a balance between social justice, the environment, and the economy.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON
Thank you very much for that comment, Peter.
Günther.
12:25 p.m.
Prof. Günther Bachmann
I agree that the targets and timetables are kind of the turning point in policy-making when it comes to sustainable development. We are coming from a world where politics was just programming and measures, means and measures, and now the targeted timetable approach allows us to go for verification, for public trust, and for a new kind of public-private partnership. That is why I think the targeted approach, as you call it, is a turning point.
From there on, you can develop institutional set-ups, but the first principle, as I've already told you, is targeted timetables. We're not yet in the position to enforce sustainable development policies by just rule-making, by just rules for behaviour. That is something that comes maybe in a couple of years, but as of now, we have the targeted approach as the best practice employed.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON
I'd like to add to that. Today Ms. Gelfand—and she does a phenomenal job in her role... But I am wondering, from an accountability and enforcement standpoint, is it better to have her under the Auditor General branch or should she be a complete stand-alone entity, similar to the Electoral Officer or whatever, the Privacy Commissioner, or something along that line, where she can have more teeth legislated into her job rather than having a monitoring and finger-pointing type of role, but really not having any of the teeth to go with it? Is it better to have a separate entity that is an arm's-length body or still under the auditor's wing?
Peter and then Günther once again.
12:25 p.m.
Wales Commissioner for Sustainable Futures (2011-16) and Chair of the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, As an Individual
From my experience, I think the separate entity is an important statement, because this is also about leadership, enabling culture change, bringing different groups together, and convening groups to look at difficult issues and develop appropriate solutions. It's not simply about monitoring. That's an important part of the role and it's important to hold people to account, but it's a much broader role than that, and I think basing it within the audit office in Canada limits its capacity to play that broader role. That would be my summary.
12:25 p.m.
Chief Executive, Global Legislators Organisation for a Balanced Environment (GLOBE) International
Thank you very much.
I would just comment from the U.K. government's experience, and working as a practitioner within the government on the sustainable development strategy. I was very interested to go through the testimony of your last hearing and hear from the commissioner that she did not have enforcement powers.
It is very important to distinguish between a body that is a watchdog that monitors and a body that actually is able to exercise compliance through enforcement. The two need not be the same. It was not the case in the U.K. government, where for five years we had a strategy, “Securing the future”, the sustainable development strategy by the former Labour government, which was then thrown out by the coalition government. It had a very brief lifetime.
There was an independent watchdog, the Sustainable Development Commission, on which Peter was one of the commissioners, which was also abolished. The purpose of the Sustainable Development Commission was to monitor but to be a good friend of government. The requirement to ensure compliance with government directives lay with the departments.
There has been a debate in the U.K. government, including through inquiry by the Environmental Audit Committee, as to whether there needs formally to be a compliance mechanism and whether the strategy needs to be locked into either the Treasury or in the Cabinet Office, because Treasury is able to enforce and perform sanctions to errant departments. Fundamentally, this is about the management task at the front end, and then later on a political task.
I've served for many years in very large multinationals, which have extremely effective sustainable development strategies. Ten years, working with Unilever on the Unilever sustainable development strategy, it was very clear. We have annual reviews. We have regular reviews. We are constantly looking at and revising our targets. We are resetting and people are held to account. If they're being held to account in a company, why should we not expect people, managers, to be held to account in a government department?
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON
Sorry, Günther. I guess we've run out of time.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte
We have. Hopefully, we can maybe get more on that as we move forward in the questioning. I'm sorry to have to cut everybody off.
Mr. Shields.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB
Thank you, Madam Chair. I really appreciate the interesting discussion today. It's probably one of the first times I felt like I was hearing a lot of things in this committee that made more sense, and the discussion has been excellent. I really appreciate the witnesses.
Peter, there are some things you said that resonated with me a little bit. You talked about a lot of local decision-making. I can remember a long time ago, as a mayor, when people would propose certain things I said, “Is there community buy-in for this? Are you proposing something that is your idea or is there community support, because if you don't have community support we're going down the wrong road?” I think you've alluded to that.
When you get to enforcement, it's the same kinds of arguments. Is this something for which we have people who will really enforce it? I can remember when there used to be a $1,000 fine in my province for littering. Nobody ever got that fine because nobody was ever going to give that ticket. If they dropped it to $100, they gave a lot of tickets.
It's a really interesting process you're talking about when you talk about local decisions. We had a premier who, forever, used to say in our province to his MLAs when they would bring up things, “Have you talked to Martha and Henry? Go talk to Martha and Henry at their house and find out what they think before you propose something to implement and to enforce.”
Peter, could you talk a little bit more about local decision-making and how important that is to your process?
12:30 p.m.
Wales Commissioner for Sustainable Futures (2011-16) and Chair of the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, As an Individual
It is absolutely critical. As I mentioned, we went through “The Wales We Want” process, which was a 12-month process of engaging communities, businesses, and individuals around Wales in helping to inform and shape the act.
Some of our experience has been that we've had too much of a top-down approach, and we needed more of a bottom-up approach, and it's really important to get that balance.
It's really important, though, also to ensure that you have an informed approach so that people understand. One of the requirements of the new legislation is to produce a future trends report and to continue this national conversation, so that people understand what are the future trends, why it's so important to undertake some action. You really need that dialogue and that engagement to be a two-way process between information and knowledge about future trends, and allowing people to make more decisions at the local level.
From our experience, the greatest progress we've made is when we've been able to allow communities to mobilize, take action, and shape their own future. As part of “The Wales We Want”, we had communities take up that and say, okay, this is about the community that we want in our local area, and shape that for their future, understanding the priorities, the issues of climate change, and the need for jobs for young people, but really for communities to take greater ownership.
It doesn't work if it's simply a top-down process. It has to be owned and understood and involve people. That's why one of the core principles of the bill is involvement, the involvement of people in decision-making.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB
Excellent.
You also added into this that the flexibility process that was there for communities is important in that process as well.
12:30 p.m.
Wales Commissioner for Sustainable Futures (2011-16) and Chair of the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, As an Individual
It is. Of course, it's going to be embedded within the electoral process as well, the democratic process.
Under the new legislation, the future generations commissioner is required to produce, a year before the general election, a report on how we are doing on behalf of future generations, a report that sets out how we're doing against the milestones, against those indicators. That's deliberately intended to produce a better-informed electoral democratic debate and discussion about how we are doing and what we need to do more of, less of, and improve under the next government. That is deliberately designed to improve the electoral debate.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB
What you're building is a change of behaviour, not an enforcement by threat, in your communities. That's what I'm hearing.
12:30 p.m.
Wales Commissioner for Sustainable Futures (2011-16) and Chair of the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, As an Individual
Absolutely.
I think, in terms of accountability, there needs to be accountability, in terms of government accountability, in terms of performance against the broad set of measures that we've set in the legislation. The legislation on its own is not going to be a silver bullet; it will not change the world on its own. You need a process whereby you involve the wider community in enabling that change to happen.