Environment Committee on Dec. 12th, 2017

[Joyce Henry]

I'm sure we do. I don't have those numbers off the top of my head, I'm afraid.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Would you have that, Matt?

[Matt Jones]

The emissions associated with heating and cooling the building stock is around 12% of Canada's emissions. Because the code applies to new buildings, the emission reductions in our greenhouse gas inventory would have to be modelled and projected based on our expectations about the extent of buildings to be built over time, but a significant improvement for new buildings.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Are we looking at investing in incentives to retrofit? Are we investing in innovation so that we can become a leader in green energy in homes and efficiencies?

[Joyce Henry]

I just want to go back to your last question briefly. Were you asking for how much better buildings would have to be to reach net-zero energy?

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

That, yes, and what technologies would need to be utilized in order to achieve that.

[Joyce Henry]

Right, so it's in the range of 60%, I think. I'll verify that number, but currently under energy star, you can already build your home 20% better, and under R-2000, 50% better, so this is another significant step forward on that.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

You have a minute.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Okay. Boy, that goes fast.

As for the investments in innovation that we're making to once again try to make Canada a leader in this sector, what innovations are you looking at around the building codes, around meeting net-zero energy ready, and around the retrofit side of it, too? You talked about reducing the costs for home ownership and businesses.

[Joyce Henry]

I will speak broadly, and then I'll turn it over to Frank, because R and D is really his specialty. In terms of building envelopes, heating and cooling, and windows, these are the key areas for us in this respect, because those can make major advances. Things like heat exchange pumps are big ones for Canada. That's a big area for us because of our climate.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I read about passive homes in Germany years ago. George Monbiot wrote about this. Are we looking at those specifying codes so that we achieve that kind of building itself and then these systems? Of course, we're not Germany. Our climate is very different, but we're still going to need heating systems. How do we incorporate that into it?

[Joyce Henry]

What I would say is that in my office we've met several times with Passive House Canada. We're very supportive of their work, because they are advancing energy efficiency goals within houses. That's certainly one of the very high stringent standards that can be looked at. There are some challenges around that for Canada, because often the technology that is used is certified in Germany, but not necessarily for the Canadian market. We certainly work with them closely and support what they're trying to do, so they certainly feed into us in terms of information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

I'm just going to let everybody know that this card means you have one minute left, and this card means please wrap up whatever you're saying as quickly as possible because we're already out of time. I hate to do this, but it's just to keep us on track.

It's all good. You gave good answers.

Mr. Fast.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses.

There are so many questions we have that we'll never get through.

Anyway, welcome, Mr. DesRosiers. By the way, Ms. Henry has been doing a very good job. I hope you haven't been rendered superfluous.

The first item is just some housekeeping.

Back on October 31, 2017, Ms. Amanda Wilson was here. We expressly requested from her a copy of the analysis that was done on the negative economic impacts of a national carbon tax on the forest products sector and more broadly, perhaps, on other sectors. I understand, at least from national media reports, that work has been done within Natural Resources to assess what the impact will be on the forestry sector. She was unable to provide us with that information, but when I asked her if she could provide us with that, she said, “Absolutely.” That was back on October 31, and we have not seen or heard anything.

Can I get your commitment that Natural Resources will get us that information that was promised at that last meeting?

[Frank DesRosiers, Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology Sector, Department of Natural Resources]

I'm the ADM responsible for Amanda Wilson, along with a few others, and I did sign off on the package that was responding to the question from the committee, so it should be, or has been, delivered for the clerk's consideration. If not, we can do a follow-up and make sure that it is in your hands.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Good. It looks like we haven't received it yet, so it would be good to make sure that we make that connection.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Since you've already signed off on it, can you assure us it will not be heavily redacted like the report we had from Environment Canada?

[Frank DesRosiers]

Yes, I'd be happy to provide that.

This is not, anyway, a direct responsibility or knowledge on our part. It's more the forestry service, but we did reach out to our colleagues in the department, and they were happy to provide the input.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

We look forward to receiving that.

I'd like to talk about the clean fuel standard that is being proposed, which I don't think anyone has seen yet. It's pending. Industry has referred to the pending clean fuel standard as being the second level of carbon tax that's going to be imposed, because it represents a cost to industry.

Have you done an analysis on the impact the clean fuel standard will have on our economy?

[John Moffet, Acting Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment]

I'm responsible for the development of the clean fuel standard, and no, we haven't promulgated the standard yet. I'll briefly tell you what we have done.

The minister has made a commitment about the overall objectives of the clean fuel standard. It will apply to all fuels—liquid, gaseous, and solid—and it will be designed in a way that ramps up the stringency over time to achieve 30 megatonnes in production annually by 2030, so not immediately, but getting to that point.

We issued some discussion papers and held a pretty significant set of consultations throughout the course of 2017. We anticipate publishing a framework document very shortly. It will be available for Christmas stockings, I expect, so very soon, in a matter of days. It will lay out the details of what we propose. Then we plan to have technical discussions throughout the first part of 2018 to lead to a draft regulation by the middle of 2018.

At this point, the economic analysis we've done is at a very rough level because we have not sorted out precisely what the requirements will be, when they will start, what the trajectory will be, nor have we sorted out what all the compliance options will be. That's what we want to consult with the ministry on, what the range of compliance options should be, and how to enable the economy to make this transition to lower carbon intensity fuels in the most economically efficient manner possible.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Will the clean fuel standard be implemented before an economic analysis has been done?

[John Moffet]

No, absolutely not. The clean fuel standard will take the form of a regulation, so it will be like any other Governor in Council regulation. A draft version of it will be published in the Canada Gazette part I. We plan to do that by the middle of 2018. That will be accompanied by a full economic analysis, followed by further public consultation. Our goal is to have the final regulations published in the Canada Gazette part II by the middle of 2019, and again with the full economic analysis available to the public.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Will you release the economic analysis to the public?

[John Moffet]

Yes, absolutely.