Evidence of meeting #13 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was witnesses.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
We don't have the witnesses on trial, especially when we're asking questions about another department. I don't think it's fair to the witnesses.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
I understand, but the witnesses can answer for themselves in that regard if they wish.
5:50 p.m.
Chief Enforcement Officer, Enforcement Branch, Department of the Environment
I can only speak to the mandate of Environment and Climate Change Canada today.
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Mr. Chair, I have to just again raise my concerns here that we cannot do our job as parliamentarians. I've seen this happen on this committee a number of times. This is not reflective on our committee witnesses here today or yourself in your chair, Mr. Chair. We've seen where we wanted to have the deputy minister come in, and I've said specifically that I wanted to ask questions in regard to her role as an accounting officer. MP Collins has put forward a motion endorsed by this committee so that we could get a full spectrum of questions on the efficacy of the CEPA regime starting from detection all the way through to successful prosecution or not, and unfortunately, that is not happening today.
I just want to register that, Mr. Chair, in the strongest of terms, and I am not a member of Parliament to throw these terms around lightly. I am deeply disappointed by the government's regard for our committee. I do hope that the other vice-chairs are listening, and I do hope ultimately the minister and his staff are listening. To be treating members of Parliament, specifically the committee that is charged legislatively, statutorily, with the scrutinizing of his department and the government's general approach.... I just want to register my frustration and my disappointment, and quite frankly, I'm getting to the point of anger, because this committee is being shown time and time again a lack of regard.
Thank you.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON
As the newest member of the committee and having stepped into this study, it was my understanding that this study was really about CEPA enforcement, not relitigation of the Volkswagen case per se, but to see how we can improve the CEPA commitments that were made at the throne speech even in 2020 of last year.
That being said, can you clarify for me: Did my colleague Mr. Albas at any time ask for a member of the public prosecution to be a witness just so we can clarify between enforcement, which is what we're focused on here, versus their procedural process in a court case that has already been decided upon?
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you, Madam Saks, for that question.
Mr. Albas has about 30 seconds. The clock is stopped.
5:55 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
I wasn't going to continue, Mr. Chair, but now that you've given me the floor again, I'm taking it. Perhaps the MP should consider that part of a justice system is a properly funded justice system. We've seen in the past few years questions of the independence of that prosecution, and now we see questions about resourcing the ability for them to be able to hold companies accountable. I think 100% that this is not relitigating something; this is us holding the government to account for its resourcing.
Mr. Chair, I would appreciate it if the member would allow me to have my piece and raise legitimate points of order in the future.
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
I'm going to take some time out and speak to Madam Clerk so that I may have some answers to some of the points that have been raised.
You still have your 30 seconds, Mr. Albas, but I'm going to put myself on mute and get back to the committee in a couple of minutes.
Thank you.
6 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
I just have a bit of background. The idea was to have departmental officials appear last. Normally the departmental officials appear at the beginning, but Ms. Collins thought it would be a good idea, and the committee agreed, that they appear last.
The clerk deals with someone in the department, a public servant, to determine who will appear for the department. The excellent witnesses we have today were suggested by the department. To my knowledge, nobody invited anyone from the Public Prosecution Service of Canada. I don't think any member of the committee suggested that we do that.
There was someone by the name of McCready—I forget the first name and I apologize—who was basically replaced here today by Ms. Pelletier. Ms. Pelletier has been briefed. Ms. Pelletier, I imagine, was in the office all along.
You weren't brought in by an outside department, were you? Have you always been working in this office?
6 p.m.
Chief Enforcement Officer, Enforcement Branch, Department of the Environment
I have a correction. Heather McCready was the director general for environmental enforcement. She was replaced by Donald Walker.
6 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Okay, Mr. Walker, but Mr. Walker, you didn't come out of the blue. You have been in the department for a while?
6 p.m.
Director General, Environmental Enforcement, Department of the Environment
I joined the department in 2020.
6 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
You joined in 2020. Do you feel you have a good perspective on things? Do you have the same perspective more or less as Ms. McCready?
6 p.m.
Director General, Environmental Enforcement, Department of the Environment
I believe I'm able to speak to the issues.
6 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Okay.
Then Emile Boudreau, who I guess was in the department at the time of the case, has been replaced by Mr. Enns?
6 p.m.
Director General, Risk Analysis Directorate, Department of the Environment
Emile Boudreau was the investigating officer, so I wouldn't have directly replaced him.
6 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
So the only person whose perspective we would not have 100% or 95% would be Mr. Boudreau. Is that correct?
Mr. Walker has Ms. McCready's perspective.
6 p.m.
Director General, Risk Analysis Directorate, Department of the Environment
Emile Boudreau was the investigating officer, but he was in touch with me. I received regular updates from him through the entirety of the case. On that basis, I understand the key aspects of the investigation and can relay them here.
6 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Okay. What it boils down to is the witnesses we have today were recommended by the public service as the most relevant, and we were never asked to bring in anyone from the Public Prosecution Service.
Mr. Albas.
6 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Directly to that point, if you look in the motion it says, including the investigation and charging of Volkswagen. I asked very specific questions about charging, and we know that the Public Prosecution office is responsible for that.
ECCC gives their investigations and recommendations, but ultimately the Public Prosecution office charges.
6 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Mr. Chair, by not submitting anyone who had direct responsibility between investigation and charging shows contempt for this particular setting.