Environment Committee on March 8th, 2021

[Karen Hogan]

Thank you for the question. I will see if Mr. Hayes who was auditing environmental manager just recently would like to add to it.

As funds move horizontally, we follow that dollar. It doesn't really matter where it ends up. Whether we include one department or many departments in our audit, it is still something that we can cover.

The issue that we're seeing with horizontality is really having an organization or one department that is the lead and cannot necessarily compel another department to do something, as each deputy head is responsible for the funds and the programs under their discretion. What complicates the matter is ensuring that proper action is taken and that everyone plays their role, but it doesn't complicate our audit efforts.

I don't know, Andrew, if you wanted to add anything to that.

[Andrew Hayes, Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General]

I'll simply say that the importance of clear accountabilities in the context of horizontal initiatives is critical, and that's been something that we have commented on as an area for improvement in places like climate change audits and sustainable development audits.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

You mentioned sustainable development audits. I was just actually looking at the one in 2020 where you did an audit of the Federal Sustainable Development Act. What I saw there was that you looked at 12 different departments. It's a program where the Minister of the Environment has overall responsibility for the entirety of government and yet you had to look at 12 different departments like fisheries, Health, Indigenous Services, National Defence and so on.

One of the findings that you mentioned was that the audit found consistent failure on setting targets or meeting set targets, as departments do not report to the Minister of the Environment, which is accountability, which is what you just mentioned.

I guess when I look at this, that's exactly what I see. I see a minister responsible for an outcome without having authority over the spending. As an auditor, how can you gauge the effectiveness of a program when you can't tie the spending authority to the program responsibility?

[Andrew Hayes]

I'm not sure if you want Ms. Hogan to start or if you want me to start.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

You can go ahead, sure.

[Andrew Hayes]

In those cases that we have examined where there are horizontal initiatives, what we see is that the various departments and agencies that contribute feed information to the lead department. The lead department has to rely on the information that it receives from the other departments. At a fundamental level, the coordination becomes a challenge without the ability to compel or to direct in the horizontal context.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Ms. Hogan.

[Karen Hogan]

I'm not sure if I have much to add other than to say that this is where a possible solution would be. Either a central agency needs to play that role, or some clear accountability needs to be put into horizontal projects in order to ensure that one department can compel another.

I think that would be a possible solution that we've identified through audits over time.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

As you look forward then, is this an area where it would be helpful to have fewer of these transfers, more of these transfers? What is the specific solution? Is that it—to have some ability to compel from ministers?

[Karen Hogan]

I think that what I suggested is probably one solution. Again, it really is our role to identify gaps and issues, to engage in a good debate and then to ensure that something is done to improve outcomes going forward. The fundamental decisions really rest with the legislature and deputy heads.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have time for a comment, Mr. Redekopp.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Looking ahead to Bill C-12, does it not have the same issue, where it's going to be a massive bill that affects all departments? How is an audit going to take place with something like that?

[Karen Hogan]

I do not know all the nuances of Bill C-12—my apologies—but yes, I think it's a horizontal issue. Unless that fundamental issue is addressed about having someone accountable and not just gathering information, we'll see similar issues going forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Interesting.

Mr. Schiefke.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. DeMarco, congratulations on your appointment as Canada's new commissioner of the environment and sustainable development and for your 25 years of service in the environmental field.

Thank you for joining us this afternoon.

My constituency, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, is located in Quebec. I know that my constituents are keeping a close eye on the progress made in this area.

For example, I kept an eye on the adoption of the Quebec government's Bill 44. The bill calls for the creation of an advisory committee to advise the minister and the government on the fight against climate change. The committee must be made up of independent experts who mostly come from the scientific community. In addition, Quebec's sustainable development commissioner, under the authority of Quebec's auditor general, has been given the new responsibility of reporting annually on their recommendations.

Can you describe how the role and responsibilities of Quebec's commissioner differ from your role and responsibilities at the federal level? Could some aspects of the Quebec commissioner's role be used to strengthen the federal commissioner's role?

[Jerry DeMarco]

Thank you for the question.

I'm going to answer that in English because it requires a bit of terminology that I'm not up to speed on in French.

The models used at the federal level, at the Ontario level and at the Quebec level for the commissioners are in the same class. They are all situated within an auditor's office. The witnesses that you heard from earlier today spoke of other models that, for example, New Zealand uses. There are other subnational models in the state of Victoria and in the Australian Capital Territory.

There's a range of models out there. The differences between the federal model, Quebec's and Ontario's are relatively minor. I'm not aware of the new bill that you're speaking of in terms of the changes that are coming, or could come, in Quebec.

For the most part, my role as commissioner of the environment and sustainable development is relatively similar to the Ontario commissioner of the environment and to the Quebec sustainable development commissioner.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you for that, Commissioner.

I am very happy that you brought up other jurisdictions. It's a good segue into the next question that I have for you.

We're looking at ways to strengthen your role as commissioner, to improve upon it. I am wondering, in the same spirit as the previous question, if there is any way that we can borrow from other jurisdictions, local or international. I'm interested in hearing more about the ways in which commissioners in other jurisdictions play their important role.

I know you're new in this role. Perhaps this question would be for you as well as for Ms. Hogan.

I find that Bill C-12, Commissioner, offers an interesting case study to look at with regard to what other countries are putting in place in terms of independent oversight and as we're seeing more countries joining the pledge to have an accountable process towards net-zero emissions by 2050. We know that in the U.K., for example, the climate change committee has an independent statutory body that has been established to keep track of the U.K. government's goal to achieve net-zero emissions by 2050.

Our government's Bill C-12, in addition to enabling the commissioner to play an oversight role, would require the minister to set up a net-zero body to provide advice on pathways to net zero.

Are there any other jurisdictions around the world that provide for this kind of oversight by having a commissioner and an expert panel to keep the government accountable, and are there any other ways you think we could strengthen that?

[Jerry DeMarco]

You heard from the witnesses in the first hour, who spoke extensively to that issue. There are models in Europe, as well as in Australia and New Zealand, that you could look to.

I would probably advise that you carry out an evaluation of the effectiveness of those models, because there is no one-size-fits-all way of doing this. There are a lot of different approaches available. In terms of best practices, you can certainly look at some of those jurisdictions.

In my previous role at the Ontario level, I took part in a performance audit of Ontario's climate change plan. The 2019 report from that included, in an appendix, an extensive analysis of best practices in the climate change area in particular.

Do recall that the intent of the role of commissioner of the environment and sustainable development isn't to silo environmental and sustainable development issues in a manner that isolates them from economic and social issues. If you look at the 17 UN sustainable development goals, you can see how cross-cutting and horizontal those issues are, so there is an advantage to looking at these things in a more integrated manner. There are also advantages to the more specialist approach.

I'd be happy to carry out whatever role is assigned by the statute, but I do advise that you look carefully at the effectiveness of all of those models before landing on any changes to the current one used in Canada.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you, Commissioner.

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have about 20 seconds.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Okay. Well, I will leave it to one of my fellow colleagues to continue their questioning.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. Schiefke.

Ms. Pauzé, you have six minutes.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank Ms. Hogan and Mr. Hayes for joining us again. I also want to congratulate Mr. DeMarco on his appointment and welcome him back.

Ms. Hogan, you have extensive experience in the Office of the Auditor General. You know the issues. You said that the office plays a significant role when it comes to the United Nations' sustainable development goals, which Canada adheres to. However, a witness told us earlier that the governance of climate action in Canada isn't working; that Canada has never achieved its objectives over the past 20 years; and that, of the G7 countries, Canada is the only country whose emissions aren't decreasing.

I have two questions about this.

First, I want to know why you're advocating for the status quo under these conditions.

Second, in an interview with the Toronto Star, Mr. Hayes said that the commissioner is chronically underfunded and that no auditor is assigned exclusively to environmental issues. Does this explain why Canada is failing to achieve its objectives?

You said that you like the current structure. I like effectiveness. It's the 21st century. Given what we're going through with climate change, we need an effective structure.

[Karen Hogan]

Thank you for the question.

I'm advocating for the status quo because I believe that the Office of the Auditor General is more effective because of its independence. All individuals, including the commissioner, are independent from the government. The office has extensive access to information that other officers of Parliament don't have.

You referred to individuals who focus exclusively on environmental performance audits. Everyone in the office can work on performance audits. That said, we have specialists and experts who, while supporting other office initiatives, primarily focus on the commissioner's reports. I can't tell you exactly what percentage of their work this amounts to. This integration approach takes into account the sustainable development goals. The approach promotes the consideration of environmental and sustainable development issues during the analysis or audit of all the programs, not just the environmental programs.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Ms. Hogan, I'll go back to what the three witnesses told us earlier, which is that this doesn't work. That's why I'm wondering why we're unable to consider another option.

Can you tell us, for example, what percentage of the Office of the Auditor General of Canada's budget is currently devoted to the commissioner's work, or what percentage has been devoted to it over the past 10 years? If you don't have this information in front of you, you can send it to the committee. As they say, funding is always key.