Environment Committee on March 15th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I call this meeting to order.

Today we're having the 18th meeting of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development. Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, February 3, 2021, and the motion adopted by the committee on February 17, the committee is beginning its study of Bill C-204, an act to amend the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, 1999, with regard to final disposal of plastic waste.

Today we have two panels. In the first panel, a one-person panel essentially, we're going to be hearing from the sponsor of the bill, MP Scot Davidson.

Congratulations, Mr. Davidson, on getting your bill to this stage of the legislative process. We all know that it's no small feat, and it reflects on the hard work that you've been doing.

We will start with Mr. Davidson for a little more than half an hour and then we will resume with a second panel.

I don't think I need to explain the rules to you, Mr. Davidson. Obviously you have five minutes, and when you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

Other than that, the floor is yours.

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to start by thanking the members of this committee for all the work they've done to date in protecting the environment. I'm sure the bill being studied today presents another opportunity to further these efforts.

Bill C-204 seeks to prohibit the export of plastic waste from Canada to other countries, where it is all too often being burned, dumped in the ocean or otherwise disposed of improperly, with devastating impacts on the environment.

Other countries, such as Australia, New Zealand and the U.K., have already taken action on this important issue, but Canada has not. In fact, the current federal government has rejected all calls to implement a plastic waste ban, claiming that the practice of sending plastic waste to foreign countries is beneficial, despite so much evidence to the contrary. We can't continue to do what we've been doing. Canada needs to show leadership and take responsibility for its own plastic waste.

This can be achieved through Bill C-204, which amends the Canadian Environmental Protection Act to prohibit the export of plastic waste to foreign countries for final disposal. This bill has been drafted to ensure that our domestic laws include a strong prohibition on the export of plastic waste that works with our international agreements while still permitting the export of properly recycled plastic waste.

To this end, the definition of “plastic waste” outlined in the accompanying schedule is derived straight from the Basel Convention. Likewise, “final disposal” is a specifically defined term, meaning “Operations which do not lead to the possibility of resource recovery, recycling, reclamation...or alternative [reuse]”. Examples of final disposal operations include dumping plastic into landfills, releasing it into oceans or keeping it in permanent storage. By focusing on final disposal operations, we can ensure that legitimate, sustainable and environmentally sound exports of plastic waste are not prohibited.

Bill C-204 would bring all of these changes in line with the rest of the regulations in this section of the act. This will give the minister the ability to add or remove plastics from the prohibited list, and it would also apply fines and penalties against anyone who contravenes it. Through these changes, the export of plastic waste for final disposal from Canada to other countries will finally be prohibited.

As the committee studies this bill, I believe there are some important considerations that must be made. Foremost, of course, is the environment. It has to be. It's been made abundantly clear that the export of plastic waste, especially to developing countries, cannot continue as it has. The export of plastic waste has decimated the environment in many countries, and it is affecting our own environment here in Canada as well. The good news, Mr. Chair, is that here is a better way. The first and most important step is to ban these kinds of plastic exports.

It is important to consider the role of industry. I'm a small business person myself, and I know that these kinds of changes can have real impacts on businesses. However, it's also an opportunity. There are so many innovative Canadian companies that have answers to our own plastic waste problem. I have mentioned a few before, but Cielo Waste Solutions is a perfect example of a company poised to make a real difference with a clean waste-management process. The biggest problem right now is getting enough Canadian plastic on hand. Too much is being exported away. It is also important to ensure that plastic waste can be exported if it is being recycled properly.

Not so long ago, Mr. Chair, this very committee recommended a plastic waste export ban in its report entitled “The Last Straw: Turning the Tide on Plastic Pollution in Canada”, which was presented to the House in June 2019. That very recommendation, number 11, came after months of committee meetings and many witness submissions from environmental groups, industry and governmental departments. Bill C-204 offers the best opportunity to make this recommendation a reality.

I am grateful for the the support Bill C-204 has in the House and among Canadians from coast to coast to coast. I brought this issue forward because I truly believe that our environment and the issue of plastic waste should not be partisan issues, Mr. Chair. I have enjoyed some constructive conversations with colleagues from all parties on this issue, and I appreciate their insights and contributions.

I look forward to following the committee's work as this bill is studied this week.

With Bill C-204, Canada can take a leadership role once more, and ban the export of plastic waste.

Thanks very much to all my colleagues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. Davidson.

We'll go to a six-minute round of questioning, beginning with Mrs. McLeod.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to my colleague.

The only point I'll disagree with is the one Mr. Davidson made during his sound check, when he said he had the best riding. There are many MPs here who would challenge him in terms of whose riding is truly the best.

This is a really important bill, and I'm glad to see it brought forward.

The member talked about the committee, and how it had recommended it. That was before the pandemic. The pandemic has shown us the importance of being self-sufficient, whether it's developing our own PPE or disposing of plastic waste.

Can you talk a bit more about your motivation? You had a very fortunate spot in terms of introducing a bill. Of all the different areas you could have chosen, why was this important to you?

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

As you know, I do have the greatest riding in Canada, and it is home to Lake Simcoe.

I was a small business person going way back. I grew up, actually, on Lake Simcoe. I have been around water all my life. Clean water is very important to me. All committee members here know that when we—all MPs, witnesses, our great clerk, our chair—think of Canada, when we talk about Canada from coast to coast to coast, we think about Canada with its pristine coastlines, the rocky mountain ridges and the flowing waterfalls.

Water is very important. We know there's a plastic problem in the oceans. I mentioned the U.K. and Australia, but it's time for Canada to take a leadership approach on plastics, and that's why I truly believe Bill C-204 is so important.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

At the second reading debate, you obviously had solid support from the majority of the House, which allowed you to get to this stage. I understand the Liberals were expressing reservation and did not support you. As you listened to the debate, were there any particular issues that stood out for you that you believe managed to turn the corner?

Again, I was surprised that a government that has talked very clearly about plastics and plastic waste did not stand with you on this particular bill.

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

I was hoping that all members in the House of Commons would stand with me arm to arm from coast to coast to coast on this bill—the Greens, the NDP, the Bloc, ourselves. This is an important initiative. I did try to do some arm-twisting. I wasn't successful with our Liberal colleagues. I hope that we as a committee will work together. Canadians have put us here to work together, and I truly believe that everyone who sits on this committee is going to work together.

Gord Johns has spoken about plastics. He has risen in the House of Commons 87 times to speak about plastics. You can see how important this issue is to other colleagues. It's important we take a leadership role as Canadians, as parliamentarians, and work together on this issue. I'm happy to listen and hear from the witnesses in the committee as this bill moves along.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

No bill can be perfect at first blush. As you listened to the arguments at second reading, was there anything you heard that you thought was important that needed to be considered for an amendment? Is there anything that really stands out in your mind, from the second reading debate, that might need a bit of massaging in the bill?

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

What I heard at second reading was that colleagues were looking for something stronger. That's how much our parliamentarians are concerned about this issue of plastics. I would expect that we can all work together as a committee, and as a group, to come up with solutions. If there are amendments that have to be put, I'm happy to listen to them, quite frankly, and to work together with parliamentarians on this bill.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Mostly you saw that there was a real interest in terms of making this bill as strong as possible.

I thought it was interesting that you talked about how Canadians have companies that are innovative. I remember being able to buy some wonderful recycled plastic products in the past that just aren't available anymore. Is that a real issue?

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

There is a shortage. One company I highlighted was Goodwood Plastic. Even just outside my own riding, there was a development that was done on a small craft harbour. We have a lot of deteriorating lumber that just doesn't stand up in the way new recycled plastic lumber does. These Canadian companies guarantee it for 50 years.

As parliamentarians and as Canadians, we have to be pushing Canadian industry and showcasing Canadian industry. We have to be a facilitator to Canadian industry and give them all those tools to make them a success.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Ms. McLeod. You have 10 seconds remaining.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Go ahead, Mr. Saini, please. You have six minutes.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Hello, Mr. Davidson. It's always good to see you. I'm glad you haven't lost any of your enthusiasm.

I'm interested in some points of view from you. Your bill is going to have significant impacts on stakeholders along the value chain of plastics, including waste management, recycling organizations, provinces and municipalities, and businesses that trade in waste. Did you consult with any of these stakeholders when you were developing your bill?

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Thanks for the question.

Raj, I miss you, too, in person. It's great to see you on here.

Look, I did consult industry. As I said, I had them in my office. Understand that I was probably as shocked as you that I drew number five in the PMB lottery and had to get this bill drafted quickly with the House of Commons. That was actually a bit of a chore, and meeting with witnesses, all at the beginning of COVID.

That said, I still managed to do it. I did reach out to industry. One of the things that was of concern to industry was that they had the idea they couldn't.... They said, “Scot, what if we have something going over to the United States that was going to be an input in something with St. Marys Cement? We can't send it over to the U.S. anymore.” That's why I concentrated on plastic for final disposal. That's why that specific term is there, plastic for “final disposal”.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Mr. Davidson, you also know, and your leader has said this quite publicly many times, that he wants to respect provincial jurisdiction. When you're dealing with waste management issues, it's the purview of the provinces, and by extension, municipal governments. Do you think your bill will make it harder for them or more expensive for them to carry out their job?

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

I have to be honest with you. When I met with industry, I believe industry recognized, and I think you would recognize, that there is a problem in the world's oceans. We have a problem with plastic. At the end of the day, our federal government, truly being us, has to try to solve that problem, work with stakeholders and truly show leadership. We need to take a leadership role federally and show people the way.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

If you take this a bit more broadly than domestically, in terms of the United States and Canada, as you know, we import and export municipal solid waste to one another all the time. How do you think this ban or prohibition would impact Canada-U.S. relations?

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Do you mean waste going over to the U.S.?

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Yes, or coming from the U.S.

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

As I said, the reason I chose waste for final disposal is that, if we don't look at the U.S., what happens is that the solution right now of just throwing it over the fence and not worrying about it—out of sight, out of mind—is a solution. If I didn't look at the U.S., at what would happen if we left the U.S. open, we'd lose control of our waste once it had gone there.

In turn, someone could put that on a cargo ship in the U.S., send it to the Philippines or Bangladesh and we'd have no control over it. That was my thought process when I made up this bill. When I consulted with industry, we took the definitions right from the Basel Convention.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Is my time up, Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

No. You have a good two minutes.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Okay.

Now that you've mentioned the Basel Convention, let's look at that, because I think that's where the technicality lies. I don't think anybody's going to disagree with the spirit of your bill. I think we're all there, but we also have to recognize that on the issue of plastic waste and the need to take action, a key reason we didn't support this legislation is that it's legally mute.

You mentioned the Basel Convention. The prior and informed consent provisions of the Basel Convention—which went into effect this year—would apply to all Basel signatories. The amended agreement, relating to the export of plastic with the United States, would govern the cross-boundary shipments of plastic waste, so why would the bill still be required when we're already a signatory and when we're already following the amendments and the provisions of that agreement, which 188 countries have signed?