Evidence of meeting #26 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was plastics.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair and thank you to all of our witnesses who joined us today. This conversation is really teaching me a lot about all of the things we need to think about.
One thing that keeps coming to mind is the fact that change is hard. It's not an easy part of human nature. You know the ban on single-use plastics is really a first step for both consumers and producers to make those changes that we need.
Dr. Curran, I'd like to direct my first question to you. I'd like you to expand on your comments on the use of CEPA schedule 1 for listing plastic waste and why you say this is the appropriate venue for regulation.
I'll be specific with a reference here. CEPA schedule 1 also includes carbon dioxide as toxic, and carbon dioxide is used in food production. There doesn't seem to be an exodus of carbonated beverages in the industry in Canada or elsewhere in the world. People also don't avoid fire extinguishers that use of CO2, even though that's listed as toxic. There's also ammonia, which is dissolved in water and is used as a window cleaner in Windex. None of these products have stopped being used although they are listed, and that's because they are used in a specific way in our daily lives and the government regulates them appropriately.
We talked about the low bar in this first step. I would like you to go a little bit further into CEPA on schedule 1 for this.
4:50 p.m.
Executive Director, Environmental Law Centre, University of Victoria, As an Individual
Through the chair, I also want to point out that lead is on the schedule, and right now my son has a job pouring lead weights for a small local fishing company. Very clearly, what we're trying to do is to establish a baseline, a very low bar, of how we actually look at the impact of these listed substances on the environment. I've ready read you the definition, and it's all about environmental impact. There's virtual consensus that it has an impact that is unacceptable.
By virtue of being able to list, the federal government triggers its mechanism for creating a Canada-wide response to something that is largely within its jurisdiction, in the marine sphere and more broadly, saying, “Look, in Canada, we will not import certain things,” or, “We'll only import them in certain ways if we can then use them otherwise.”
All you're doing is triggering your jurisdiction essentially to say that this is of national concern and that we need to establish a baseline for how we're going to behave as an industry in the kinds of things that we can produce.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON
That's great.
I'm going to shift direction a little bit here now. We talked about a circular economy and also about EPR. I'd also like to talk about the burden on the end-user in all of these things. As long as we keep producing these products, the end-user will use them and, eventually, whether it's for a short period of time or a long period of time, they will dispose of them.
We really need to talk about this as a barrier, because 37.5 million Canadians are not going to change overnight. Even now, many dirty recycled items go into our blue bins and don't wind up where they're supposed to because they haven't been cleaned properly, they haven't been disposed of properly and are constantly filling our landfills.
Dr. Misra, you started to talk about this evolution in bioproducts that we can use. I'm sure my colleague, Mr. Longfield, will have much more to say about this when he gets a chance to chat with you.
I'd like to open the conversation on this. Are we so far away from making these shifts for industry that seem to be of tremendous concern? Are the costs of doing this astronomical, or should we be really working hand-in-hand with our end-users and industry right now in this first step with the single-use plastic ban?
4:50 p.m.
Professor and Tier 1 Canada Research Chair in Sustainable Biocomposites, University of Guelph, As an Individual
Exactly. I will say that we have to act together because, as part of a new circular economy, we have to rethink and redesign the products when we are working with new materials. These new materials or green materials or products are not going to be replacing something. This will stand alone as an innovation or innovative material. Therefore, we have to work together as a whole group—industry and universities together. In the industry, there are a lot of partners, including consumers and individuals.
Everybody has to be responsible for entering into and taking part in the innovation, and then taking the fruits of innovation, which, right now, are not truly cost competitive. If you consider the whole scenario, of course our product is cost competitive, which we kind of designed that way, but not everything is. We have to make one cultural shift.
4:55 p.m.
Professor and Tier 1 Canada Research Chair in Sustainable Biocomposites, University of Guelph, As an Individual
Unless we do the cultural shift, we can never go to innovation.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you.
Dr. Misra, can you maybe raise your microphone bar just a little bit?
Okay, I think that will be better.
4:55 p.m.
Professor and Tier 1 Canada Research Chair in Sustainable Biocomposites, University of Guelph, As an Individual
Thank you very much.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Okay.
We'll go to our third round now, starting with Mr. Albas, for five minutes, please.
April 21st, 2021 / 4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Great. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
When we were debating Bill C-204, MP Longfield pleaded that the industry was saying that the bill was going in the wrong direction, yet on this issue, they seem disinterested in what industry has to say, so our committee has been getting many letters from plastic producers on this. He said, “There are letters upon letters, and they all say the same thing: This legislation is dangerous for their businesses, will not help us recycle”.
I'll go again to Mr. Burt.
Do you agree with the many of the letters that we're getting here and that the government has made up its mind and is not listening despite your knowing your business?
4:55 p.m.
Vice-President and Global Director, Climate and Energy Policy, Dow
That's what we believe. We've been working with the federal and provincial governments for years now on this plastics file. It appears that most of our comments have fallen on deaf ears. The real concern for us is obviously twofold: the plastic designation as toxic and the bans.
Earlier comments or testimony highlighted the fact that there are many items on schedule 1, but very few of them are banned. Plastic manufactured items are being put on schedule 1, in our opinion, for the whole purpose of banning some items, and our concern is that this list will continue to expand. That's what got most of the industry in Canada that's in the plastic value chain space very uncomfortable, because we're unsure what is going to be banned and placed on the list next.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
That's very interesting because I used a direct quote from MP Longfield from a debate on Bill C-204.
I don't have much time, Mr. Burt, but what do you say to Liberal members who were so strident about listening to your industry then, and are ignoring you and many of the other businesses you've mentioned today?
4:55 p.m.
Vice-President and Global Director, Climate and Energy Policy, Dow
We in the chemical industry have been very adamant about working with the federal and provincial governments. We think a national strategy to tackle plastic waste is paramount and are willing to put dollars and investments into making sure that a strategy would move forward with advanced recycling technologies. We are willing to sign on, and are advocates for, extended producer responsibility. Basically, what we want to do is to make sure these facilities get up and running. We want to make sure that plastic waste is collected, and we actually want to stop it from being a waste. We want it to be a resource for the circular economy and the advanced recycling facilities, going forward.
We have members in our national association, CIAC, that represent the entire value chain, from recyclers, brand owners and converters all the way to the resin producers; and we're all on the same page. We're concerned about the bans. These will have a negative impact on the economy and on investment, and there's a better path forward.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Professor Curran, one topic has not been addressed yet. We've heard a lot from the disability community that certain products, specifically plastic straws, are a necessity for their community. I know many will say, “Oh, well, this is just as good as plastic”, when we talk about other alternatives. When I talk to disability groups and people with disabilities, they tell me it is not as good.
Should we ignore their lived experiences and remove something that increases accessibility?
4:55 p.m.
Executive Director, Environmental Law Centre, University of Victoria, As an Individual
No, we should not remove what is mandated by Health Canada, and also in partnership with people with different abilities. Therefore, I've maintained from the beginning that there will be lots of exceptions.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Should there be exceptions specifically for disabilities, because we don't have any indication from the government that there's going to be a clear exemption for things like plastic straws? People with MS in my riding—I'm from the Okanagan—have told me they that cannot suck through the recycled paper straws.
4:55 p.m.
Executive Director, Environmental Law Centre, University of Victoria, As an Individual
As the broad strategy gets put down into either plastic-specific or sector-specific...with much more detailed outcomes, then all of those exemptions will need to be spelled out. As another honourable member has said, that needs to be done in partnership with Health Canada and other parts of the federal government.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Mr. Chair, I know my time is limited here, but I just want to say the following. Being from British Columbia and representing an area that uses wood products, I will quickly say that the picture of the government coming came in and telling the forestry industry how to do its job.... Yes, obviously there were real problems in the 1990s, but the problem is that the industry itself knew what practices and which bad actors needed to be reined in. I would just simply suggest that this government needs to start thinking of people and industry, not for them, like this.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses, and to the clerk for putting together such a great panel for us to get alternative opinions on the study that we're doing.
It wouldn't surprise you that I have some questions for Dr. Misra, but also for Mr. St-Hilaire. I see your testimonies as very complementary.
Dr. Misra, you mentioned in your comments the Canada Plastics Pact. I've just googled them, and I see that it's a global pact on plastics. Could you maybe talk about the importance of being able to transfer plastics across international borders for the purpose of recycling, and the work that pact is doing?
5 p.m.
Professor and Tier 1 Canada Research Chair in Sustainable Biocomposites, University of Guelph, As an Individual
Right now, because there are so many variations of plastic waste generated in different parts of the country and different parts of the world, it is very important how we label the material, because in the past we were sending everything to the Far East and they were absorbing all of our waste, but that is not possible anymore. How we label our materials now, as per our designations, will also affect how we will interact with the international borders and how we can move the materials across borders.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
Thank you.
I know that you know Dr. Mohanty quite well, and the recycling work that's going on for plastics use in the automotive industry. Some of the bioplastics have better strength properties, and they can use 25% less product in their headlight mouldings, let's say, for Ford. Therefore there are cost reductions, material reductions and improved performance with bioplastics.
5 p.m.
Professor and Tier 1 Canada Research Chair in Sustainable Biocomposites, University of Guelph, As an Individual
Exactly. Thank you very much for that.
Actually, you can use the traditional plastic, which is the post-consumer or post-industrial recycled plastic, like that headlamp or housing made up of polypropylene, with some waste feedstock—waste coffee cups, other industry waste like DDG or soy meal, and anything you can think about. When you covert it to carbon, you can use that biocarbon as your replacement of the carbon black used for automotives.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
Thank you.
Madam Boudreault, you can probably understand that; I can see you nodding and smiling. That's an important part of your development of product as well. We need regulations to help with the development of solutions going forward, like the bioplastic straws that are being developed at the University of Guelph, as an example.
I wish I could speak more with you, Dr. Misra, being a Canada research chair. I'm so fortunate to have you in our community so that we can have longer conversations.
Mr. St-Hilaire, is the Canada Plastics Pact something that your company participates in? You said you had trouble sourcing product.