Environment Committee on April 26th, 2021

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

In the National Zero Waste Council's report on a food loss and waste strategy, you state that there is “strong correlation between foods with the highest percentage of wastage and the least amount of packaging”—essentially, that proper packaging reduces food waste.

Wouldn't, then, eliminating some plastic packaging and declaring all plastic packaging toxic increase food waste?

[Maja Vodanovic]

No, it wouldn't. I don't think we should mix up the two. If you go to the grocery store and see the thousands and thousands of containers of plastic there that are made with virgin plastic.... I think we have a lot of work to do together as federal and municipal governments. There's too much to do to argue about this. We should just—

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Are you discounting, though, what was argued in that Zero Waste report? Again, it found “strong correlation between foods with the highest percentage of wastage and the least amount of packaging”.

That seems odd.

[Maja Vodanovic]

No. It is a very small angle, I would say, that you're taking to discredit the notion that we should do anything about plastics. I think we should start with bans and do things smartly; do things a step at a time, and make sure the food is safe. We could do it all. Canadians are smart. We can move away from virgin plastics all over the place.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I think it was a reasonable question, but I appreciate that you may not agree with the angle I'm coming from. When someone says there's a strong correlation between two things, I think it's reasonable to ask about it.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thanks.

We have five and a half minutes for Mr. Baker.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thanks, Chair. I'll be sharing my time with my colleagues.

I have one question for Mayor Vodanovic. You said earlier, in response to a colleague, and you said it multiple times, that banning certain things is a first step. I think those were the words you used.

My question for you is, is there anything else you would ban, beyond what's already on the list, and how would you determine what that is?

[Maja Vodanovic]

That's a big question. I didn't have enough time to think about that one.

I would ban certain plastics that are not.... I know certain people can recycle number six plastics, but it takes a lot of energy to do it. There is certain really toxic stuff in number three that we should ban.

I would ban the stuff we cannot recycle and think about it on a more global scale. I don't think the federal government should take any time to argue about straws; I think we should look at it at a global level and see what we need to ban in order to have a healthier Canada all around.

I'm not afraid of toxicity, because so far we eat about—I think this is in one of the reports from the States—a credit card's amount of plastic a week; that's what we ingest. Plastic degrades into micro particles, and we eat it and don't know. As a precautionary principle, I would not say that this is a good thing. Maybe we don't have all of the studies, but to eat that much plastic a week is not a good thing.

I don't think we should be afraid to do what has to be done. You have to move forward and not get stuck in little details. That's the point. I'm sorry.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I appreciate that. There is no need to apologize. Thank you very much.

I'm going to pass the rest of my time to Mr. Saini.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Moucachen, this question is for you.

At our last meeting, we talked about bioplastics. What's your opinion on bioplastics, and how feasible is it to include it? If you include it with fossil-based plastics, what would be the recycling implications? How would you take it apart?

[Tony Moucachen]

I think Mr. Olivier has touched on it, but I agree with him.

We currently have bioplastics in some PET and in some polyethylene. Once you make the ethylene and then turn it into polyethylene, it doesn't matter if the ethylene is bio-based or if it's oil-based ethylene.

Historically, oil has been cheaper to convert to ethylene, and natural gas has been cheaper to convert. The implication for recycling is none. Once it's a polyethylene, it's a polyethylene, regardless of it having come from a bio base or an oil base.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'll pass my remaining time to Ms. Saks.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Saini; and thank you, Chair.

We keep circling around the bogeyman, which is toxicity. The science is clear: Plastic is toxic; it's clogging our waterways; it's affecting our wildlife; it affects our health when it's consumed through microplastics. Mr. Cantin also acknowledged that there is a toxic issue to plastic. We need to address it head on.

I'd like any final comments from Mayor Vodanovic or Mr. Cantin.

We drink soda that has CO2 in it. SodaStream is one of the biggest companies in the world that combines the use of CO2 and hard plastic so that people use them over and over again. Therefore, we shouldn't be afraid of the innovation of industry, of setting a line in the sand on what toxic implications are.

Mayor Vodanovic, do you have any final thoughts on that?

[Maja Vodanovic]

I think we should be brave enough and just go ahead and do what needs to be done.

Yes, microplastics in the ocean are everywhere and we don't know the damage it's doing our fish. We know it's damaging, so we really have to act now and not be afraid.

I want to answer Mr. Baker, because I remember now that we had two other things that we wanted to ban. One is helium balloons, which are incredibly dangerous because they fly over and they go into the ocean and create damage.

Also, cigarette butts are made of plastic. They should be done in a different way, because they go everywhere. Animals ingest them and it's very bad for their digestive system. It's something small, but it should be changed into something different from a plastic filter.

Ms. Saks, I took away your time about the toxicity. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have done that.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

That's quite all right.

Mr. Chair, how are we for time? I think we're nearly done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Yes, pretty much.

Ms. Vodanovic, maybe we can have one final comment, for 10 or 15 seconds, in answer to Ms. Saks.

[Maja Vodanovic]

I'm willing to work more with you guys if you need me. I would love to send over more information and what we've done at the National Zero Waste Council.

Now we're starting a new area of study and work with the industry and government. It's a coalition for plastics with the National Zero Waste Council. I could send you information on that as well.

I'd be very happy to continue this conversation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

I have one sort of tentative observation, and I wish somebody from the department was here, which they will be at some point. I was reflecting on how there seems to be a tension between listing something on CEPA or not listing something on CEPA and then wanting a national approach.

I suspect that unless something is listed on CEPA, there really is no federal jurisdiction. I guess that might be one of the reasons the government did that: so that it could show some federal leadership. Even the federal jurisdiction through CEPA was not a slam dunk. It was the result of a six-to-five Supreme Court decision in the nineties.

I hope somebody picks up that question and asks one of the officials when they appear.

This has been a really great panel. I must tell you that as of five o'clock on Friday we hadn't really put the panel together completely, and I was a little concerned that we'd be thin on the panel and that it wouldn't be a success, but I think it has been one of the best panels we've had on the subject.

I want to thank all the witnesses for their insights, which are rooted in great knowledge and experience, and I would like to thank all the members for their very good questions.

We're at the end of our time for this third panel on plastics. We have another couple left. It has been a great study so far.

Thank you, Mr. Albas, for suggesting it.

On that, I'll bang the gavel and wish everyone a good evening.