Evidence of meeting #8 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was vehicle.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
Okay, I'll go quickly.
Mr. Adams, I missed the beginning of the meeting. I wanted to ask you a question from our auto caucus. Thank you for being there on Monday.
We saw our vehicle sales go down all across Canada during COVID. We looked at possibly having some type of an incentive program, like cash for clunkers, could maybe get us towards ZEVs if we had an incentive to get 12-year-old cars off the road.
Could you have a quick comment on that? Then I'll turn it over to Mr. Saini.
5:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Global Automakers of Canada
We believe that reducing emissions takes a multi-faceted approach. In addition to getting more EVs on the road, you need to address the current fleet, which is much larger by orders of magnitude. Cash for clunkers or a scrappage program would take care of vehicles that are 12 years or older and get them off the road.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank all of you again for coming here today.
I have more of a philosophical question, and it's for Mr. Adams and Mr. Breton. I don't need a long answer.
If we look at what it takes to manufacture an electric vehicle, whether it is with lithium, cobalt, nickel or copper.... These are all precious minerals. We have the mining capacity to do this in an environmentally sustainable way, yet we're importing these products.
For our own defence capacity and national security, could this not be a way of incentivizing other industries, to make sure we protect our national security?
5:20 p.m.
President and Chief Operating Officer, Electric Mobility Canada
Do you want to go ahead, Mr. Adams?
5:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Global Automakers of Canada
Do you mean national security in the sense of the raw materials you're referring to?
5:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Global Automakers of Canada
Yes, certainly. If electrification and electric vehicle manufacturing are going to take place, it makes sense, as a corollary of that, to have battery manufacturing in Canada too, because it's too expensive to move those from one jurisdiction to another. It makes sense that you would want to try to develop the whole supply chain.
5:20 p.m.
President and Chief Operating Officer, Electric Mobility Canada
I agree with Mr. Adams. I think there's a case to be made about the geopolitical implications. We've seen that with oil in the past. I think making batteries with minerals from North America—in Canada, for example—is strategically very important. We've seen that with COVID. It has been hard to get pieces from Asia and right now most batteries are made in Asia.
If we want to be more independent, in a sense we cannot be totally independent; we have to be codependent, especially in North America. But I think it makes sense to have batteries made with minerals from Canada and the U.S. for the North American market. Geopolitically, it makes sense.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
I want to pass the rest of my time to MP O'Connell.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
There's not a lot of time left. I had Ms. O'Connell on the list anyway, at the end.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Yes, okay. We'll get to you, Ms. O'Connell.
Go ahead, Madame Pauzé.
5:20 p.m.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Adams, you say in your brief that short-term regulatory intervention promoting the purchase of zero-emission vehicles is out of step with the medium- and longer-term time horizon of the transition the industry is going through. My impression is that it's more the manufacturers that are out of step with reality.
In 2008, I wanted to buy an electric car, but the dealers tried to persuade me otherwise and encouraged me to buy a gas car instead.
Do your members, who are dealers, train their salespeople on how to promote electric vehicles?
5:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Global Automakers of Canada
I think an area we can always improve upon is the education not only of the public but also of the dealerships.
As you know, the dealerships are independent businesses of the vehicle manufacturers. Dealerships are in business to make money and sell vehicles. If they are looking to sell a vehicle, they'll generally try to sell what the consumer is looking for.
Maybe you were referring to a hybrid in 2008. The reality is that we're at the nascent point of this industry. It's just beginning—
5:20 p.m.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
No, they really suggested that I buy a gas car.
Getting back to the supply issue, several people have told us, since this committee's first meetings on zero-emission vehicles, that vehicle supply is still a problem today.
I'm going to ask a question related to the one my Liberal colleague Mr. Saini asked earlier. China and Europe have legislation on zero-emission vehicles, which has accelerated the industry's transition.
Am I correct in understanding that you agree with this kind of legislation?
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
5:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Global Automakers of Canada
I would say no. China has the largest population in the world. It has a number of manufacturers that are indigenous to China. We don't. China is also prescribing that manufacturers not build ICE vehicles as of 2035. I don't think Canada is in a position to take draconian measures like that.
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have a question for Mr. Wudrick.
Mr. Wudrick, you were saying earlier that you represent an organization that's concerned about taxpayers and the costs they bear. Health Canada estimates that air pollution, especially in urban areas, causes 14,600 premature deaths every year and that the social, economic and public welfare consequences cost taxpayers $114 billion a year.
If we're talking about incentives for electric vehicles that reduce air pollution, as well as climate pollution, shouldn't we be considering those health benefits of improving air quality when we're looking at the impact on taxpaying citizens?
5:25 p.m.
Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation
Sure. Again, I don't have any issue with the objective of this policy.
My point is this: If you have people who are in a position to buy a $55,000 vehicle, are you actually changing many minds by giving them $5,000 of taxpayer money? It's great that they buy a cleaner vehicle, and it's great that there are health benefits for all of us, but I'm simply questioning whether or not they've analyzed the marginal change in those purchases, based on the policy.
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
I hear you bringing this up again. It's around the efficacy of these incentives. However, the jurisdictions that are leading, in terms of the number of electric vehicles, all have these incentives in place. Isn't that a proof point that says that these incentives work to incentivize the purchases?
5:25 p.m.
Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation
I've actually heard contradictory things today. I've heard, on the one hand, that we need the subsidy to stimulate demand, but I've also heard that demand is so high that people can't find them on the lots. I have heard that the life cycle, based on the total cost of the vehicle, is comparable to combustion engines. Well, if it's comparable, then why do we need the subsidy?
I mean, I'm hearing contradictions here. Again, I have no issue with ZEVs. It would be great if we could all drive them and if they were all priced competitively. I'm simply questioning whether giving $5,000 to people who can afford a $50,000 car is a good use of taxpayer money.
