Evidence of meeting #108 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was price.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Minister, it's always nice to see you in that chair answering our questions.
We all agree that climate change is real, that something has to be done to reduce pollution and that each party has its own view of how to do that. Yours revolves around the carbon tax, and we have another perspective.
In response to my fellow member's questions earlier, you gave a few figures relating to annual greenhouse gas emission reductions that you claimed were attributable to the carbon tax.
Those figures come from the national inventory report, do they not?
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
The figures I gave were based on analyses. Some information comes from the annual greenhouse gas inventory, and other information is based on analyses by Environment and Climate Change Canada.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Do those data reflect projections or actual results that were identified and directly attributed to the carbon tax?
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
As you know, we use modelling to determine the effects of various measures. The data reflect projections not for previous years, but for future years.
When we talk about 70 million tonnes by 2030, it's a projection. The data for previous years are based on an assessment by the department as well as other independent organizations.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Through that assessment, then, you were able to quantify the amount of pollution, measure it exactly, attaching an exact figure to the carbon tax you're imposing on people. Is that correct?
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Again, carbon pricing is not a tax.
To answer your question, I can say that yes, the department and other organizations perform an analysis to measure the effects of carbon pricing on greenhouse gas emission reductions in relation to other measures that we put in place.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Minister, there seems to be a mistake, because I don't understand something.
You are here telling us that you were able to calculate the exact effect of the carbon tax on reductions. However, in a letter you, yourself, signed on January 29, you clearly conclude by saying that the government does not measure annual reductions in emissions directly attributable to the federal carbon pricing regime.
Who's telling the truth? Is it the Steven Guilbeault talking to me right now or the one who signed the letter stating that it was not possible to measure what you just said?
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
As I said, the greenhouse gas inventory is a document we put out each year further to our UN obligations.
The answer you're referring to related to a question that, off the top of my head—since I don't have it in front of me—was about measuring the effect of carbon pricing on individual travel—
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
No, it didn't refer to that. I have the question here. I'll read it to you.
Does the government measure the annual amount of emissions that are directly reduced from federal carbon pricing?
It isn't about individual travel.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
You are the one who signed the document, Minister.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
It's hard to speak to a document I don't have in front of me.
There is a lot of information I can share with you, but I don't know it all by heart. That's why I occasionally need to refer to my materials or turn to colleagues at the department or in other departments.
The figures I gave you today, May 21, provide an explanation based on both the inventories and a departmental analysis of the impact of carbon pricing on the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions.
I can give you the figures again, but you heard them earlier.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
That contradicts what you, yourself, wrote in a letter you signed in January.
You can throw out figures galore, but in January, you didn't have those numbers. You have numbers for the previous five years and the next five years. Come on.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
You said figures galore, but I gave you five, and they concern the years 2018 to 2022. In addition, we did an analysis on the projections for 2023 to 2030.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
I have a minute left.
You and I are Quebeckers.
As we know, the carbon pricing system in Quebec is different from the federal government's. You know as well as I do that you have the power to put a price on carbon in Quebec.
Will you? If so, when and how much will it be?
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Further to our agreement with the Government of Quebec, which recognizes that Quebec has a comparable system, Quebec's carbon pricing system continues to apply, as is the case in other Canadian provinces.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Since you want to quadruple the price on emissions—to use your words—if Quebec's carbon exchange ever ceased to be comparable or equivalent to the federal system, when would you impose your price on Quebec and how much would it be?
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
We have no intention of imposing a price on Quebec.
Bear in mind that Quebec's system is not based on a carbon price. It's based on the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions. The carbon pricing system sends a price signal, whereas the cap-and-trade system works according to a cap on greenhouse gas emissions, which decrease year after year.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Certainly, Quebec's price is much different than what the price is elsewhere, and people who compare only the price are missing—
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
They are missing the very way that Quebec's system is designed.
May 21st, 2024 / 4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister Guilbeault, for being here today to answer our questions on the price on pollution.
The last two weeks have shown that climate change has a real cost, and no responsible government or political party should ignore that. We're only in May, yet there have been thousands of Canadians displaced from their homes and the air quality has been affected. We know that impacts health costs. There's the cost of damages, and there's the cost to our economy.
The Canadian Climate Institute estimated, through their reports on the cost of climate change, that it could slow economic growth by about 50%, costing $25 billion by 2025, and there are costs that aren't even estimated there. I'm wondering about this. Instead of outright denying climate change, recently the Conservatives have changed tack and they're trying to undermine the carbon pricing system, even going as far as to question the modelling, which has now been provided fully. I'm not quite sure what we're going to hear back on that. Also, we know that hundreds of scientists have endorsed not only carbon pricing but also the model.
It's clear that the only scenario where opposing climate action makes sense is if you don't believe that climate change will have real costs. However, the evidence is staring us in the face. Could you share with the committee the consequences of not taking action to address climate change by putting a price on pollution?
