Environment Committee on May 21st, 2024

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

John will correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't yet have the numbers for 2023. We're still compiling them. It takes about two years, and that's the case for most nations compiling their inventory reports. The inventory report that was put out in 2024 was for 2022. The one we will put out next year will be for 2023. Obviously, this could change, but we anticipate that it will be about 24 megatonnes next year. We'll have the report next year, but it will be for the 2023 numbers.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Has your government decided whether it will increase the carbon tax over $170 a tonne past 2030? Give me a yes or no.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I'm sorry. I missed the beginning of your question.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Has your government decided whether it will increase the carbon tax over $170 a tonne past 2030? Give me a yes or no.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

As the chair of the committee said earlier, I'm not obliged to answer yes or no to those questions. There's been no such determination made at this point.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

You're not obliged, but I think you have a moral duty to answer Canadians.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I have an obligation to answer. That's exactly what I'm doing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

He said there's been no decision.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I think that an issue as complicated and as significant to Canadians as climate change deserves better than a yes-or-no answer. I guess that's my point.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Yes, they absolutely do. If you're going to go beyond quadrupling the carbon tax...absolutely.

Do you have any indication? Do you think you might?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

We haven't had that conversation.

I'll remind you that it's not a carbon tax. It's a pricing system for carbon.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

In terms of the way it's going, do you think it might or might not?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I think that's the third time. I'm happy to repeat it again. It's your time, sir.

We haven't had any conversations about that.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

The environment commissioner revealed that your government gave away billions of dollars to their $8-billion net-zero accelerator fund without knowing whether any of the emissions would be reduced.

Were you aware of this?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Unfortunately, I don't have the environment commissioner's report in front of me. I was under the impression we were talking about carbon pricing, but I'd be happy to provide a response in writing to this question.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Talking about carbon pricing, we are talking about a model that was potentially going to reduce emissions. We're asking the government whether it can prove it or not.

The net-zero accelerator fund was actually from the commissioner's report. I'll read it: The majority of the net-zero accelerator contribution agreements do not have commitments for emissions reductions. Were you aware of that?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this accelerator is under the responsibility of the Department of Innovation, Science and Economic Development. I'm sure they would be happy to provide an answer to your question.

Again, it's not a question pertaining to carbon pricing.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Does that concern you at all—that the commissioner found this? Is there any concern at all?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Well, I—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I gave you an extra minute because of all the back and forth and interruptions.

However, we have to go now to Madame Chatel.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development, Minister.

Our Conservative colleagues talk constantly about eliminating our carbon pricing system, and I'm wondering what they propose to do after that. What are the options?

Obviously, at committee, we've spoken a great deal about alternatives. In an open letter signed by 300 economists, they describe carbon pricing as one of the most effective and least intrusive ways for our economy to transition towards a green economy and give us the opportunity to be a world leader in the new economy.

Has your department studied other solutions? Are they just as effective?

How would it work if we eliminated our carbon pricing system?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Chatel.

As I have always said, if there is another zero-cost measure for Canadian taxpayers that could help us reduce our greenhouse gas emissions by at least a third by 2030, show it to me. We have not found such a measure.

With the help of departmental officials, we've set up over a hundred measures, but carbon pricing remains the most effective to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. Once again, it costs nothing for the Canadian public, because this money is returned directly to families, to SMEs, to indigenous communities and to municipalities. Those 300 economists said so.

During an interview a few weeks ago, the Parliamentary Budget Officer also recognized that it was the measure with the least intrusive impact on the economy. You used that word, and I think he used it as well. It is therefore a measure that will help us reduce our greenhouse gas emissions without affecting the Canadian economy.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

I don't have a great deal of speaking time, but I would like to share it with my colleague, Mr. Ali.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Through the chair, if we fail to take urgent action to address climate change, there will likely be places on our planet that will be almost impossible to live in. When we think of climate refugees, we often think about hotter countries, but Canada is actually warming at roughly three times the average mean warming rates. Last week, CBC reported that 43% of the people displaced by wildfires globally in 2023 were actually here in Canada. Unfortunately, we may be seeing this trend repeated this year. In total, displacement from floods, storms, wildfires and other weather-related disasters rose to 31.8 million people last year—more than twice as many as those who were displaced by conflict and violence.

What structures are being put in place nationally and internationally to monitor and respond to the anticipated national and global displacement of people?

Minister, it's over to you, please.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

It is very clear, according to the science, that we've entered the era of climate change and that we have to play both offence and defence. We have to play offence in the sense that we have to put in place everything we can to reduce, as rapidly as possible, carbon pollution in Canada and around the world. However, we also have to play defence because we've entered the era of climate change, and there are impacts being felt across the world and, certainly, in Canada.

You were talking about the forest fires. I was in British Columbia last week talking to members of the B.C. government, who told me that the evacuation in Fort Nelson two weekends ago was the earliest evacuation in the history of the province. We've never had that happen so early in the year, and we've also seen other evacuation orders across the country.

That's why we worked with all provinces and territories, indigenous nations, municipalities, the private sector and insurance companies to develop the first-ever national adaptation strategy to help better protect our communities and Canadians, whether from wildfires, floods or the intense heat waves we're seeing more and more.

However, it's not just us looking into this. Canada is hosting the NATO Climate Change and Security Centre of Excellence in Montreal. It's obviously an issue, I would argue, for most Canadians and for most parliamentarians in the House of Commons, but it's also an international issue, so much so that it's now viewed as a security issue by the U.S. government, NATO and many others.

Since 2015, we've invested about $10 billion in disaster relief and in different measures to help Canadians be better prepared to face the impacts of climate change. We understand we will need to do more. For every dollar we invest in being better prepared, we save $15.