Evidence of meeting #110 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was risk.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Céline Bak  Partner, Risk Advisory, Financial Services, ESG & Impact, Deloitte
Faith Goodman  Chief Executive Officer, Goodman Sustainability Group Inc.
Daan Van Acker  Program Manager, InfluenceMap
Renaud Brossard  Vice-President, Communications, Montreal Economic Institute
Rosa Galvez  Senator, Quebec (Bedford), ISG
Bruce Pardy  Professor of Law, Queen's University, As an Individual
Ellen Quigley  Research Professor, University of Cambridge, As an Individual
Peter Routledge  Superintendent, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions

May 30th, 2024 / 4:30 p.m.

Vice-President, Communications, Montreal Economic Institute

Renaud Brossard

Quite simply, a significant part of any cost that's imposed on the business gets passed on to consumers. Part of it gets passed on, of course, to the owners of the business, who get a little bit less profit, but usually they find a way to jack up prices so that it can then be passed on to consumers.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

You mentioned consultants. I've heard the conversation around the table today regarding SMEs, many of which do operate on a global scale or at least North American scale, and many of which also might make the thing that's sitting in front of me here. It might be entirely domestic. They may be a very legitimately small enterprise.

You mentioned the capacity limitations, but it seems as though this is largely just a cottage industry of consultants who are putting together ways to audit things when ultimately, to me, it's very nebulous as to whether or not it will reduce emissions.

Do you feel that this is a pathway to actually reducing emissions in any significant way?

4:30 p.m.

Vice-President, Communications, Montreal Economic Institute

Renaud Brossard

I don't think it's a pathway to actually reducing emissions in any significant way, other than by imposing undue costs on small businesses and having enough of them shut down.

The fact is that when businesses were consulted about this, a lot of small businesses said this was not something that should apply to them. Of course, the consultants who would be in charge of making those reports are typically very much in favour of getting extra business.

In and of itself, voluntary disclosure of the different scopes of emission is not a bad thing at all. It can be a good thing, and that's why some businesses choose to do it, but mandatory disclosure would be very, very costly for the many small businesses that would be subject to it or that would be in the supply chains of other businesses that are subject to it.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Is it fair to state that voluntary disclosure is a good thing for perhaps a competitive advantage, but mandating it across the board for all SMEs and large companies is more of a cost than it is a benefit to Canada?

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Please give a very brief answer.

4:35 p.m.

Vice-President, Communications, Montreal Economic Institute

Renaud Brossard

Absolutely.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Ms. Taylor Roy, take us to the end of this panel.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Great. Thank you so much.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

I caught myself there.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

There's been a lot of discussion about the necessity of disclosures and whether companies should disclose or not, but it seems to me that the horse has left the barn. It's necessary to have disclosures, to have the clarity and the certainty that our companies need, for many reasons.

Every one of the witnesses has alluded to different things: The cost of capital increases if you don't have disclosures; markets might disappear, especially if it's part of your supply chain; on profitability, returns might be lower. It seems to me that the conversation is really about how we help companies to efficiently, in a way that doesn't overburden them, actually meet these requirements.

Ms. Goodman, you talked about some of the best practices that come from one of the World Bank forums on small and medium-sized enterprises. Do you have any examples of tool kits or the use of AI or digitization that will help these small and medium-sized enterprises to disclose their emissions and go in the right direction?

4:35 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Goodman Sustainability Group Inc.

Faith Goodman

As global rules unfold, as I said, supply chains increasingly will need to deliver on sustainability—the E, the S, the G. It's already here. Certainly the EU is leading that agenda.

I'll use the SME example. There is a key piece of their mindset that we need to think about as we think about policy.

First, absolutely, are they aware that it's a competitive advantage for them to participate? Then do they have the skills, the knowledge and the expertise to begin the journey? How do they carbon count? How do they carbon count remotely? How do they build their ESG road map that would fulfill the obligation of the supply chain globally that they're in? Once they've built their ESG road map, how do they build their pro forma and decide on what the decarbonization technology is?

Then, where do they get the capital? What is the price of that capital? If they don't have a good asset base or a historical revenue stream, the bank might not give it to them. What are the mechanisms?

When I talked about the work of the OECD and the SME Finance Forum, what I was really talking about was the opening up of options and tool kits around that entire spectrum. We were talking earlier about benchmarks—

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Ms. Goodman, I have only a couple of minutes, I know. I don't want to interrupt, but that's really great advice, and I know where we can go with that. Perhaps we can follow up on that.

The second part I wanted to talk about was a comment that a member opposite, Mr. Deltell, made regarding the use of fossil fuels in Quebec, and the fact that it's increasing and that if our banks don't fund the fossil fuel companies, we're going to have to import more fossil fuels from other countries.

I'm wondering, with the border adjustments that are happening now and the obvious need for a decline in the use of fossil fuels as financing is restricted globally, whether the price on pollution program that we have in Canada is not necessary to have in conjunction with sustainable finance, so that at the same time that capital is restricted, demand is also going down for the fossil fuels, so we don't have this kind of disconnect at the end as was described.

Can anyone comment on what you think of that, of how those work together?

4:35 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Goodman Sustainability Group Inc.

Faith Goodman

I'm not going to comment specifically on that as it's not my area of expertise, but I think all of us alluded to the idea of clarity, certainty and a level playing field. It is a globally competitive environment for all sizes of firms, and so the idea is that whatever the forward policies are, they do provide all sizes of business with certainty, clarity, transparency—

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you.

4:35 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Goodman Sustainability Group Inc.

Faith Goodman

—and a level playing field that's fit for purpose.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

That brings us to the end of our first panel.

I want to thank the witnesses for being with us today to share their point of view.

Thank you to the members of the committee for their excellent questions.

We'll take a short break to welcome the second panel of witnesses.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

I'd like to welcome our witnesses for the second half of the meeting.

We're pleased to have Senator Rosa Galvez with us. She has a bill before the Senate that relates to the subject of our study.

Senator, the floor is yours for five minutes.

4:40 p.m.

Rosa Galvez Senator, Quebec (Bedford), ISG

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, it's an honour for me to have the opportunity to discuss with you climate and environmental impacts related to the Canadian financial system.

As you know, climate change is accelerating at an alarming rate, and it's already having a devastating impact on Canada's economy and financial stability.

As funders of economic activity, financial institutions are on the front lines of climate risk. The insurance sector is particularly vulnerable and yet it continues to finance fossil fuels. Canadian pension plans have increased their investments abroad, particularly in clean energy, while investments here in Canada have stagnated.

Between 2020 and 2022, Canada's big five banks increased their exposure to fossil fuel financing from 15.5% to 18.4%, more than twice that of their European and U.S. counterparts.

Risky fossil fuel investments by our financial institutions are a clear risk to the climate and they are fuelling the climate crisis. Consideration of both the impacts of climate change on our financial institutions and the impacts of financial institutions on climate change is called double materiality. I encourage the committee to explore this concept as part of its study.

While Canadian banks have committed to net zero by 2050, a recent report shows that the big five banks favour fossil fuel investment over clean energy 3.9 to 1. In contrast, global energy investment favoured clean energy over fossil fuels by a ratio of 1.7 to 1. Canada is at odds with global trends.

The Canadian government provided over $18.55 billion in public financial support to fossil fuel companies in 2023 alone, in direct contradiction to its climate commitments and against healthy and free markets.

Despite their net-zero commitments, Canada's public and private financial institutions are increasing their support for fossil fuels. Relying on voluntary measures won't help us achieve our objectives. In fact, these companies are unreliable and are constantly at risk of backsliding, as demonstrated by BMO, which recently revoked its anti-coal lending policies to satisfy the political ideology of the state of West Virginia.

We need to use our parliamentary responsibility to design a financial system that aligns with the public interest and, through legislation, provide a level playing field for all financial institutions in the transition to a low-carbon economy.

I made such a proposition with Bill S-243, the climate-aligned finance act, or CAFA for short, introduced in the Senate in 2022 and currently being studied by the Senate committee on banking. Some actions proposed in CAFA might help inspire your committee study.

CAFA would establish a duty for directors of financial institutions and major Crown corporations to align with climate commitments. In 2019, the expert panel on sustainable finance recommended that the Canadian government clarify that fiduciary duty does not preclude the consideration of relevant climate change factors and that international best practices increasingly require such considerations.

Through annual reporting requirements, CAFA would compel federally regulated corporations, financial institutions and major Crown corporations to develop much-needed action plans, transition plans and progress reports.

CAFA would align market supervision by the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions with climate commitments. It would consider the need for capital adequacy requirements that are proportional to the macroprudential climate risks generated by financial institutions.

It would require the appointment of at least one individual with climate expertise to the boards of Crown corporations, as well as prevent conflict of interest associated with the appointment of individuals who have private interests linked to fossil fuel companies. Today, seven out of Canada's 11 largest pension funds have at least one board member who simultaneously serves as a director or executive of a fossil fuel company.

CAFA would require the publication of a government action plan to help align financial products with climate commitments.

Mr. Chair—

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

I'm sorry, Senator, but we're going to have to stop there.

4:45 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (Bedford), ISG

Rosa Galvez

Thank you. Merci. Meegwetch.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you.

There will be opportunities to elaborate.

We now have Professor Bruce Pardy, from Queen's University.

Professor Pardy, you have five minutes for your opening statement.

4:45 p.m.

Bruce Pardy Professor of Law, Queen's University, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If your objective were to prevent Canadian businesses from succeeding in the global economy, how would you do it? Here are some ideas.

You could impose taxes on your businesses and consumers of a type that other nations do not have. You could create regulatory barriers that prevent projects from being built, while other countries with rich natural resources and terrible environmental records beat us to the punch. While you're at it, you could sign on to international obligations that these other countries do not share. Finally, you could find a way to starve your primary industries of capital. That's the idea that you are exploring here.

You seem to be studying how to turn banks and other financial institutions, pensions and, ultimately, Canadian businesses themselves into climate agencies; to require them to disclose climate risks, like OSFI wants them to; to make banks impose climate standards on their customers; to have pensions divest their funds from climate laggards; and to limit or deny credit to companies based upon their compliance with government priorities. These are terrible ideas.

If you really wanted to reduce global carbon emissions, here are the first two things you could do.

First, unleash Canadian natural gas. Permit it to be developed, produced and exported without onerous regulation, red tape, carbon taxes and endless environmental assessment. Canadian natural gas could displace massive amounts of coal in China, India and numerous other countries that produce most of the carbon emissions on this planet.

Second, you could unleash nuclear energy. Unlike solar power and wind power, nuclear power is an actual substitute for fossil fuels, for generating electricity. It can produce base load, which solar and wind cannot do. You could do these things while enhancing Canadian prosperity. Instead, you seek to control and direct financial markets and the economy itself.

Free market economies are not managed. We don't really have free markets in this country. Instead, bureaucracies insert themselves into every facet of economic activity. Managerial governments seek to compel their preferred outcomes. That doesn't work.

Businesses don't need to be told to pay attention to risk; that's what business does. Competing in a commercial marketplace is the definition of risk. Publicly listed companies already have obligations to disclose material risks to their business. For most businesses, the biggest climate risk is not physical or environmental but governmental. It is the risk from changing regulatory demands that shift the legal ground beneath their feet. You represent their biggest risk.

Other natural resource countries are eating our lunch. Foreign investment is leaving. Per capita GDP is falling. Productivity is in the tank.

Canadians are becoming poor. Canadian prosperity is easily lost. We are seeing just how easy it can be.

Thank you.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Professor. You were right on time at five minutes.

We'll go now to research professor Ellen Quigley at the University of Cambridge.

You have five minutes.

4:50 p.m.

Dr. Ellen Quigley Research Professor, University of Cambridge, As an Individual

Thank you.

Hello. My name is Ellen Quigley and I am a research professor and special adviser to the chief financial officer at the University of Cambridge. However, I speak in a private capacity as an academic today.

It is after 10 p.m. my time, but it is well worth working late to have a chance to speak with you. I have one central message to share with you today, which is that we are behind, but we have the opportunity to lead.

I'll start with how we're behind. As a country, our emissions are still rising, while wealthy country peers, including the U.S., have seen significant decreases in recent years. Our major banks are substantially more exposed to fossil fuel financing compared with international peers, as has been mentioned, with figures ranging from 14% to 23% of total balance sheet exposure. These are eye-popping figures that regulators should already be concerned about. These numbers may be so high precisely because global banks and investors have already pulled out of Canada's oil and gas sector—Barclays and HSBC being two of the most salient examples—rendering it increasingly a provincial industry, quite literally, that is heavily concentrated in our own domestic financial institutions.

We should be asking ourselves why investors from other countries consider our reserves too risky and what level of concentrated risk we're willing to be left with.

On top of that, we face serious reputational harm on the international stage. I have to say that I am now embarrassed to be a Canadian working abroad, where we are increasingly—and, I'm afraid, justifiably—seen as a global pariah in climate terms.

Our negative climate impact is disproportionate and rising, but so is the financial risk to our country as a result. Our most significant increases in emissions come from oil and gas, and our oil and gas are relatively expensive, emissions-intensive and largely for export. That makes us vulnerable. Two peer-reviewed academic papers by former Cambridge colleague Mercure and co-authors find that Canada is particularly exposed to stranded asset risk by global standards, especially on a per capita basis.

However, as someone who was born and raised on the Prairies, I also worry about stranded workers and communities if we continue with fossil fuel expansion at this stage. These risks continue to rise without our ability to even account for them, because we don't yet have the necessary legislation and regulation in place to do so.

However, we have before us CAFA, which would allow us to leapfrog other jurisdictions and become the global leader in climate finance. CAFA is consistent with other jurisdictions' requirements—which will increasingly be necessary anyway, especially as EU regulation extends to a border adjustment mechanism—and interjurisdictional measures, while also going a step further to maintain and enhance Canada's reputation as a steady hand in this area. We're known for being a particularly skilled regulator of the banking system, and we are also the envy of the world when it comes to pension fund governance. CAFA would simply add to the perception that the world should look to Canada for financial sector legislation and regulation.

Yes, that's right: This legislation is going to make us look prescient to global observers in future years, because it recognizes climate as a systemic risk that must be attended to at a macro-prudential level. I say we will look smart if we do this now, but the flip side is also true: We will look like idiots if we fail to do this, as one of the most exposed economies in the world. I personally would love to see Canada leading again, and CAFA would make that happen.

Finally, here's a word about transition plans. I know the federal government is currently considering how to regulate disclosure, as noted in the recent fall economic statement, and anticipates presenting options on this. Defining and regulating credible transition plans should be a key part of this.

One of my own research strands involves analyzing the credibility of banks' and fund managers' climate targets and transition plans. In that work, I find so many loopholes and evasions that I've written a paper, soon to be published, that includes bingo cards to help people identify the most common ones. Transition plans are not worth the paper they're printed on unless they are regulated and standardized. Currently, the quality is simply not high enough to be usable by investors. CAFA would address this issue too, and is therefore likely to be imitated the world over.

As I said, we are currently behind, but CAFA gives us the opportunity to leapfrog to the forefront. In doing so, we would have a more robust framework in which to understand and prevent the systemic risks from climate change we currently face.

Thank you.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you.

I think we're going to have a lively and stimulating discussion this afternoon.

Last but not least, we have the superintendent of financial institutions, Mr. Peter Routledge.

Could you raise the boom on your mic a bit? Mr. Tardif, could you raise your boom, as well, please?

Go ahead. You have five minutes, Mr. Routledge.