Environment Committee on Aug. 26th, 2024

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I knew we'd find common ground.

Thank you, Mr. Picard.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. Lauzon, go ahead.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Chief Picard, for being here today to answer our questions.

You talked about the forestry sector. You also spoke to us about disinformation. Over the years, we've come to understand the importance of adopting good sustainable practices in the industry. I lived through the closures of Canadian International Paper, Avenor, Canadian Pacific Forest Products, Temisko, Tembec and, in my riding, the Fortress mill. I come from that environment, and I can tell you that changes have occurred over the years.

The matter before us, however, is completely different. Past situations were more about the economic situation, the digital shift, the declining use of paper and falling demand for printing. Today, we are talking about protecting caribou, and there is disinformation. Can you talk to us a bit about that?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

We're talking more about caribou because of the well-documented fragile state of their population. The scientific community has recognized this fact.

That said, the forestry industry has a significant and obvious impact on all ecosystems, but we need to talk more about that.

You mentioned the forestry company Tembec. From what I've heard, the relationship between that company and first nations communities, an Anishinabe community in this case, was always positive, particularly in the Témiscamingue region.

I talked a bit about an announcement that will be made later this week. It has to do with the cogeneration industry and, in this case, an Atikamekw community that, of course, also depends economically on the forestry industry and is successfully—

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

The idea is to use forest residues, biomass and by-products, especially those from hardwoods, where there is a good capacity—

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

Yes, exactly.

Some communities have managed to find solutions to maintain this extremely delicate balance between the economy and resource conservation. This illustrates that whenever our communities are called upon to contribute, especially in the area of traditional knowledge, our communities are always willing to discuss the issue.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Over the years, the industry has been able to turn on a dime, so to speak, to reorganize. We need only think of the current energy transition affecting the oil sector and encouraging the electrification of vehicles. This is happening in a number of areas.

It's a good idea to talk about new avenues, such as cogeneration, to create new products. Do you really think this is the way forward?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

I would invite you to check out the National Geographic cover that declares that the future will be indigenous. As long as we're given the opportunity to do so, our nations will most certainly be able to make a significant contribution in the future. However, we have to be given the opportunity to do so.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

You've mentioned the importance of relying on sound scientific data several times.

During consultations, were you able to present or consult any documents that you considered satisfactory in terms of reliable data on the ecosystem surrounding the caribou?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

You spoke earlier about the challenge we all face, specifically turning on a dime. Basically, we have to do it more often than we'd like. We have to meet this challenge every day. I am thinking in particular of the First Nations of Quebec and Labrador Sustainable Development Institute. Once again, it's unfortunate that Mr. Bédard wasn't able to join us for this discussion.

On the issue of consultations, we receive a large number of requests, often with just a few days' notice. Our duty, and our obligation on behalf of the communities we represent, is to present the most reliable data possible, to the best of our ability. However, it's important to understand that our capacity is extremely limited. We are not always on a level playing field when it comes to comparing the opinions of our scientists with those of the government, in this case the Government of Quebec.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

I invite you and your colleague to send us any documents that could support the committee's study.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Chief Picard, for being here.

Mr. Bédard, we apologize for the technical problems we encountered. As you can see, there is a lot of interest in your point of view. If you could send us your comments in writing, as I said earlier, that will inform our report and influence our conclusions.

We're going to take a short break before starting the last hour of this meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We will now resume the meeting.

For this part of the meeting, we have with us Louis Pelletier, chief forester, from the Office of the Chief Forester of Quebec.

We also have Frédéric Verreault, the executive director of corporate development at Chantiers Chibougamau.

We are also pleased to welcome Jean‑François Samray, president and CEO of the Quebec Forest Industry Council.

Finally, we have Chief Gilbert Dominique, from the Pekuakamiulnuatsh Takuhikan organization, who is joining us by video conference.

Mr. Pelletier, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Louis Pelletier, Chief Forester, Bureau du forestier en chef Québec]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, committee members and distinguished guests.

I'd like to say a few words about the Chief Forester's mandate.

This position was created in 2005 and is governed by the Sustainable Forest Development Act. The key elements of our mission are to determine the allowable cut of Quebec's public forest, of course, to inform decision makers through our analytical work, and to keep the public informed about the state of publicly owned forests.

An allowable cut is the maximum annual volume that can be harvested by species on public land, while ensuring forest renewal and evolution, based on sustainable management objectives. Once the determination has been made, the Chief Forester submits it to the minister, who is responsible for wood allocation and forest planning.

We also have a mandate to advise the minister on various issues or topics, such as the direction and planning of forest research, activities to optimize forest management strategies, and any issue that we feel requires government attention or action. In fact, that's why we've provided the minister with advice on the impact of the proposed federal order-in-council on woodland caribou and on Quebec's forestry potential.

The minister may also entrust us with any forestry mandate and request our opinion on any forestry issue, whether it concerns private or public forests.

There is an important aspect the committee should be aware of. From a sustainable development perspective, the Chief Forester performs the duties entrusted to him with the independence granted to him by this Act.

That independence is expressed in a number of ways: his retainer, his own strategic plan and a separate website from that of the Ministry. In addition, we manage our own communications, produce our own reports and render our decisions without interference. We also have investigative powers, meaning we are vested with the powers and immunity set out in the Act respecting commissions of inquiry.

When the emergency decree was presented, following the federal government's announcement of the draft emergency decree to protect the three caribou populations of Val-d'Or, Charlevoix and Pipmuacan, respectively, we undertook, on our own initiative, our impact analyses of forestry opportunities. Our analyses focused on territories known as “provisional zones”. These areas have been demarcated by the federal government. In these provisional zones, no forestry activity is permitted, nor any harvesting or silvicultural work.

Since there is no forestry activity, we used the same method as when we do an impact analysis for strict protected areas. No adjustments were made to existing silvicultural strategies. In the absence of information on their continued application, the Quebec government's woodland and montane caribou recovery plans for 2024–2028 have been maintained in the analysis and the territory outside the provisional zones. This information is included in the documents I submitted to the commission.

Our impact analysis also enabled us to note that accessibility to certain territories could be compromised, as some of them are almost entirely surrounded by provisional zones. This situation could therefore result in landlocked areas and additional repercussions, i.e., reduced forestry potential.

I'd like to emphasize another point. Zones of interest have not been evaluated on our side because, as part of the consultation, provisional zones can stretch into zones of interest. We only do this when the contours are known and public. If restrictive modalities in areas of interest and around provisional zones were to add up in terms of reduced harvesting or reduced silviculture, of course the repercussions would be different.

In the provisional zones, the analysis covered 1.6 million hectares. Of this 1.6 million hectares, 1.2 million hectares contributes to forestry potential, i.e., these hectares are eligible for harvesting and silviculture.

This affects four regions: Abitibi-Témiscamingue for the Val-d'Or herd, Capitale-Nationale and Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean for the Charlevoix herd, and Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean and Côte-Nord for the Pipmuacan herd. As for the impact on forestry potential, in Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean, we're talking about a decrease of 562,000 cubic metres…

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. Pelletier, your time is up, but I'll give you 15 more seconds to finish. Then you can take questions.

[Louis Pelletier]

I will do so with pleasure. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

A decrease of 562,000 cubic metres is forecast for Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean, 133,000 cubic metres for the Capitale-Nationale region, 246,000 cubic metres for Abitibi-Témiscamingue and 453,000 cubic metres for Côte-Nord.

In closing, I'd like to add that, as I mentioned, there are still some unknown elements, including the forest management terms and conditions in the zones of interest and the final outline of the provisional zones, which will be known at a later date. This could have repercussions. The results of our impact analysis could therefore change.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Verreault, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Frédéric Verreault, Executive Director, Corporate Development, Chantiers Chibougamau]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Members of Parliament, Chief Dominique, fellow witnesses, good morning.

Thank you for taking the time to focus on the very important issue of the woodland caribou, whose recovery we strongly desire, but also on the effects on companies like ours, on our communities and, more broadly, on the population of Quebec and Canada.

Chantiers Chibougamau is a family business founded in 1961. Our organization is made up of 1,500 men and women. Our job is to cut down trees and process them into building materials, kraft pulp and renewable energy, thereby decarbonizing infrastructure and construction and replacing single-use plastics. That's why we get up in the morning and work in the forest to process forest resources.

These 1,500 men and women collectively earn $150 million annually. A few dozen forest engineers and biologists are included in this number. They contribute to enhancing the competence that guides what we do and how we do it. They abide by codes of ethics and professional conduct, and they demonstrate our unquestionable commitment to issues as sensitive and complex as woodland caribou.

We've been talking about woodland caribou for 15 or 20 years. We document the subject, we undertake actions, we add them up, we revise them and we raise them when the need to do so is demonstrated. Regrettably, when the discussion reaches the public, it is too often polarized on the basis of a rather simplistic paradigm that lacks sensitivity to our contemporary reality. Indeed, forest industry jobs are pitted against caribou and biodiversity, whereas the two go hand in hand.

If our own practices, at Chibougamau, La Sarre, Landrienne, Béarn and Lebel-sur-Quévillon, aren't adequate when it comes to fighting climate change and protecting biodiversity, our customers won't want our materials. We have a corporate social responsibility, which is becoming a collective responsibility, of course, as your work on the subject has demonstrated.

We welcome the work done by your committee last week, which broadened the focus on the implementation of the decree as presented today. Issues surrounding the forest's life cycle are fundamental. When customers call us to buy our solid wood beams and columns, the first thing they ask about is our products' carbon footprint. It is therefore essential to look at these issues and the impact of implementing the decree on protecting the woodland caribou.

I also want to talk about the impact of our products on people. Kraft pulp from the Lebel-sur-Quévillon mill, which depends in particular on the trees that may or may not be available in the Val-d'Or sector, feeds processing operations nearby, in Gatineau, to make the sanitary paper needed by the population. It also feeds operations in central Ontario to produce sanitary paper products that are delivered to hospitals. The production of this fibre therefore has a domino effect that goes far beyond our company and our communities, and it's the most pragmatic and environmentally friendly response to meeting people's needs that we're now discussing, along with the implementation of such measures.

Headlines are often sensational. They suggest that the more we restrict the processing of trees and access to forest land by forestry companies, the better our conscience will be when it comes to biodiversity. I'm going to take the liberty of dwelling in a concrete and applied way on the facts relating to the Val-d'Or herd, which, let's not forget, has gone from around 55 individuals half a century ago to 9 today. Is this a cause for celebration? Not at all, it represents a failure. The 9 individuals of the Val-d'Or herd live on a territory of 14 hectares, which represents 25% of the surface area of Montreal's Olympic Park.

In Quebec, there's a protected area project that, on its own, calls for the removal of 43,000 hectares of forest from processing around the Val-d'Or herd enclosure. Since 2013, there has therefore been a moratorium covering these 43,000 hectares, and we are scrupulously respecting it. This number represents 1.2 times the surface area of the city of Montreal, while the 9 individuals of the Val-d'Or herd live, let's recall, on a territory that corresponds to a quarter of the surface area of Olympic Park.

Today, the proposed decree aims to remove 297,000 hectares of forest from processing. So, for the 9 individuals who live on a territory equivalent to 25% of the Olympic Park's surface area, the decree proposes to withdraw from processing an area eight times larger than that of the city of Montreal. We subscribe to the need to act, but that clearly gives rise to important questions.

What would the compensation costs be if we withdrew processing activities from certain areas?

We could reinvest elsewhere to generate this material and meet needs in the best possible way. How much would that cost?

What would the timeline be?

I think these are very important aspects to consider in terms of what is being discussed today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Samray, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Jean-François Samray, President and Chief Executive Officer, Québec Forest Industry Council]

Since time is short, I'll simply say hello and thank you to all. Kwe, Chief Dominique.

We have provided the clerk with three briefs that we feel are essential, which are intended to introduce you to the Quebec Forest Industry Council or QFIC. As you'll see, in addition to being the voice of the industry, it's also the overall impact on the industry. You'll also see the extent to which the forest industry contributes to the economic vitality and support of the Canadian and Quebec social safety net.

Let me get straight to the point.

I want to be clear about QFIC's position on protecting the caribou, which is shared by its members. We are and always have been in favour of protecting the caribou. However, a federal decree is not the solution. This decree is nothing more than a ban on management and harvesting, a glass dome aimed solely at the forestry industry, while carefully avoiding to inform recreation and tourism enthusiasts that no one will maintain forestry or multi-user roads to get to resorts and outdoor activity sites.

To ignore the various factors impacting caribou and single out just one, without considering the socio-economic risks that future decisions could represent, is deplorable. Unfortunately, that is the path taken by the government with its decree. The decree is far from being the solution. What's needed to protect caribou, but also biodiversity, are concrete restoration measures, adapted silvicultural approaches, active management of predators and alternative prey, monitoring of caribou populations, protective enclosures, bumping, if necessary, as well as greater involvement of land occupants, particularly members of Indigenous communities and the forest industry.

Forestry management is an integral part of the solution. Recent fires in major national parks demonstrate this. Jasper National Park serves as a reminder. In our view, we must stop pitting forestry against biodiversity protection. What's needed is a pragmatic balance. We believe that it is not only possible to reconcile protection, biodiversity and forestry, but that it is imperative to do so.

Mr. Seto mentioned that the federal decree only targets 4% of the territory accessible to industry, and that this is negligible. By the same logic, one might also say that the 1998 ice storm was not a serious event, since it affected only 2% of Quebec's territory. You'll agree with me that it's not so much the affected surface area that matters, but rather its position on the territory, its strategic importance and the number of people and activities affected.

This decree defines provisional zones, zones of interest and buffer zones. In the zone of interest alone, nearly 12,000 square kilometres, generating 1.4 million cubic metres per year, are frozen for industry. One important aspect has been completely overlooked by analysts. I feel sorry for the minister, because it's a fundamental aspect. There are certain forest certification holders who have now seen the maps and won't be able to go into the affected areas, whether it's the very strict perimeter or the much broader one, because it could irk certain customers and call their forest certification into question.

According to the forestry regime in place, these mills will have to get their volume from the auction system. This will greatly increase demand, in a system that is already short on supply following the 2023 fires. The measures already taken by the federal government are having an impact on the industry's competitiveness.

The price will therefore be pushed up and, at the end of the year, this price will be reflected throughout Quebec. There's only one equation. All Quebec mills are going to pay more for their wood, because there's a scarcity and because the bids are in. The price will go up for everyone. Does the decree affect only a few nearby mills? The answer is no. As of today, the decree affects the entire Quebec forest industry.

That's where we stand today. For us, for the industry, it is essential to ensure that a solution can be found. That means finding a way through. For us, that requires a dialogue, a forum in which industry and governments are present. The decree cites section 80 of the Act, but is silent on section 64, which provides for compensation for affected individuals and companies.

The people and companies affected are all those involved in the value chain. We're talking about 130,000 families and billions of dollars in revenue.

I'd be happy to discuss this further with everyone. From our perspective, what's needed is a forum that brings together the federal and provincial governments, First Nations and industry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Chief Dominique, you have the floor.

[Chief Gilbert Dominique, Pekuakamiulnuatsh Takuhikan]

Good afternoon, everyone.

My name is Gilbert Dominique, and I'm Chief of the Pekuakamiulnuatsh First Nation.

Our traditional territory, which we call Nitassinan in our language, covers an area of just over 112,000 square kilometres, including the entire watershed of the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean region. Three caribou populations have been identified in our traditional territory: Charlevoix, Témiscamie and Pipmuacan. We hold Aboriginal rights and title to Nitassinan, where the current allowable cut is approximately 7 million cubic metres. We are therefore deeply affected by the whole logging issue.

We wish to share our concerns regarding the protection of caribou in Quebec. Immediate and urgent action is the only way to restore the balance that must exist to protect the atik^u, i.e., the caribou, and its habitat. You have a legal obligation to act, and our First Nation intends to pursue the necessary steps to ensure that this matter is dealt with swiftly and with all due seriousness.

Quebec has never, other than through lip service, demonstrated its interest in protecting the caribou. We believe that firm, serious and immediate measures are required pending the implementation of the Quebec strategy.

The caribou is intimately linked to the occupation and use of the Nitassinan territory by the members of my First Nation. It is the basis of our culture and way of life. It has sustained us for centuries. The gradual decline in populations has a direct impact on the preservation of our culture and the practice of ilnu-aitun, our traditional activities.

In 2003, we were collectively forced to stop hunting caribou. The effects go far beyond the simple harvest for food. It has consequences for the very transmission of knowledge and our language, shashish nelueun, which are part of our distinctive culture and are also on the brink of extinction, alongside this species. If the caribou and its habitat were to disappear despite this effort by our First Nation, part of the Pekuakamiulnuatsh identity would disappear with them.

I hereby call upon the representatives of the Canadian government to take the appropriate measures to ensure that the protection of woodland caribou is fully respected at all levels of government. I also invite the Committee to consider the Quebec Superior Court ruling on the failure to consult on the atik^u protection strategy. This judgment was handed down on June 21, following an action brought by our First Nation and the community of Essipit. Although not related to the draft decree, it deals with the same pressing issue: the protection of the caribou. The decision and decree are also the consequence of the Quebec government's inaction. In her decision, Justice Marie Cossette stated:

Not only has their right to consultation been violated, but meanwhile, the situation of the caribou continues to deteriorate, and the government is still unable to tell the Court when the proposed protection strategy will be disclosed. As a result, their ancestral rights and title are under even greater threat, given the central role played by the caribou, whose condition continues to decline.

Quebec's attitude to the caribou issue is dishonourable and irresponsible towards future generations. A responsible government must seek a balance between protecting the territory, its fauna and flora, and, of course, socio-economic development.

Given the reality on the ground, it must be concluded that reducing allowable cut is inevitable. We believe that reducing allowable cut can be viable by focusing more on tertiary processing and innovation. Protecting the atik^u does not have to be synonymous with killing economic development and jobs in our regions. We are sensitive to the economic realities of the forestry sector. However, we must cease being in denial and recognize the true situation through an objective and scientific lens.

As highlighted in the report of the Independent Commission on Woodland and Mountain Caribou, the problems experienced by the atik^u indicate that Quebec has gone too far in harvesting the forest resource and that it is important to review forest management so that it is truly sustainable, while ensuring the protection of biodiversity.

In that sense, the governments of Quebec and Canada have a duty to propose measures to mitigate the impact on forest communities and to help them through this inevitable transition.

Our teams are currently analyzing the decree in connection with the ongoing consultation. We can already see that the Témiscamie herd is not covered by the decree, which is of great concern to us, since it is in a vulnerable state and also at risk of disappearing, particularly south of the northern boundary.

We are also prepared to forward any documents that might be relevant and help you make your decision.

Finally, faced with this situation, you are obliged to act, in compliance with the Species at Risk Act, by implementing the adoption of an emergency decree, particularly in the Nitassinan territory, to protect the caribou from current threats to its survival. We demand it—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Chief. We'd like to leave some time for questions.

In fact, we are a little behind schedule, so I'll reduce the speaking time to five minutes for the first round of questions, and to four minutes for the second round.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

So there will only be two rounds of questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

That's right.

Mr. Gourde, you have the first turn.