Evidence of meeting #117 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was quebec.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lise Boulianne  Mayor, Municipalité de Sacré-Coeur
Steeve St-Gelais  President, Boisaco Inc.
André Gilbert  General Manager, Boisaco Inc.
Ghislain Picard  Assembly of First Nations Quebec-Labrador
Alain Bédard  General Director, First Nations of Quebec and Labrador Sustainable Development Institute
Louis Pelletier  Chief Forester, Bureau du forestier en chef Québec
Frédéric Verreault  Executive Director, Corporate Development, Chantiers Chibougamau
Jean-François Samray  President and Chief Executive Officer, Québec Forest Industry Council
Gilbert Dominique  Pekuakamiulnuatsh Takuhikan

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Good afternoon to the committee members and the witnesses joining us today.

The list of meeting participants has changed a great deal because of substitutions. Mr. Simard is replacing Ms. Pauzé. Mr. Boulerice, who is attending the meeting via video conference, is replacing Ms. Collins. Ms. Shanahan, who is also attending via video conference, is replacing Mr. Longfield. Ms. Koutrakis, also via video conference, is replacing Mr. Ali. Mr. Lauzon, who is attending the meeting in person, is replacing Ms. Taylor Roy. Mr. Martel, who is also here in person, is replacing Mr. Kram. Finally, Mr. Gourde is replacing Mr. Mazier. That is the composition of today's meeting.

Before we begin, I simply want to remind everyone around the table to pay attention to the equipment to prevent acoustic incidents. We do not want to cause any injuries to our magnificent interpreters. In other words, if you do not have the floor, turn off your microphone. If you have to put down your earpiece for any reason, please place it on the middle of the sticker for this purpose, which you will find on the table. Also, do not tap the microphone. If we follow these measures, everything should run smoothly.

Without further ado, let me introduce the witnesses we are receiving for the first hour of the meeting. We have Mr. Steeve St‑Gelais, president of Boisaco. He is joined by Mr. André Gilbert, general manager of Boisaco. We also have the pleasure of welcoming Ms. Lise Boulianne, the mayor of the Municipalité de Sacré-Coeur.

I always start with the person whose name is at the top of the list. I presume we are starting with Mr. St‑Gelais.

Mr. St‑Gelais, you have five minutes.

Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC

I think it would be better if Ms. Boulianne spoke first.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

I am open to that.

Ms. Boulianne, the floor is yours.

Lise Boulianne Mayor, Municipalité de Sacré-Coeur

Good afternoon.

Ladies and gentlemen of the committee, today I am going to tell you about Sacré‑Coeur, of course. Our municipality was built on forestry and has survived on forestry since it was founded. The people of our municipality have forestry in their DNA. Sacré‑Coeur is part of the La Haute‑Côte‑Nord municipality, which is considered one of the most devitalized in Quebec.

For 40 years, Boisaco has been the economic driver of our village and the entire region. The job losses in the wake of the plant closure would affect nearly 70% of our population, not to mention the impact on the entire region. It is nearly impossible to anticipate or foresee all the devastating consequences of the federal government's current disastrous decision. Can you imagine an entire population waking up one morning completely uncertain about the future? People are calling this a disaster for our municipality. What will become of our families? What will become of our children? What will be the psychological consequences?

For decades, the community of Sacré‑Coeur has used initiative, co-operation, dynamism and solidarity to ensure its development and that is what we are doing again today to show you our commitment to a community that believes in its development and relies and will continue to rely on the forestry industry.

Our young and not so young people have invested in a promising future, taking an educational path that would ensure this future that they believed in. To that end, they registered either at a professional training centre to take forestry harvesting courses, or at the CEGEP to become forestry technicians, for example, or at the university to become professional foresters. For each of these journeys, these jobs are just one example of the opportunities. All of that training is going to be swept away. More than 600 workers believed and still believe in the sustainable development of our forests, and the animal ecosystem and the forestry sector cohabitating through concerted efforts by various stakeholders.

For our municipality, the Boisaco group is an important player. It contributes to our economic, cultural, tourism and social development through significant investment in the community, whether for our municipality, for various not‑for‑profit organizations or even for the surrounding municipalities.

How can a government believe in the survival of some 225 caribou, according to the proposed order, without worrying about the survival of a village, our village, our entire community? Has Mr. Guilbeault given any serious thought to the proposed solution? Has he thought about the consequences this order will have on our populations?

I have a flyer with me today that you can consult to get a better understanding of our community. It is certainly not the most recent, but it shows how dynamic our community is and how much its development means to its residents. Sacré‑Coeur is what it is today because of the forestry industry's presence back home since 1870.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Mayor Boulianne.

We will now move on to Mr. St‑Gelais.

Steeve St-Gelais President, Boisaco Inc.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen of the committee, we are pleased to finally have the chance to officially speak to this proposed order and we thank you for this opportunity.

For our workers, our community members and our communities in Haute‑Côte‑Nord, a terrible countdown started from the moment this order was announced on June 18. Since the announcement, our lives have been on hold. Our joie de vivre has been replaced with anxiety, worry and concern.

Our community has lived through tough times and poverty before. Between 1982 and 1985, after three successive failed attempts to operate the wood-processing facilities in Sacré‑Coeur, many locals suffered hardships. Many were forced to turn to employment insurance, social assistance or other similar sources of assistance that chip away at human dignity. Obviously, our community was the theatre of social problems, bankruptcies, mental distress, separations, divorces and an increased use of substances such as alcohol and drugs.

Fortunately, courage and determination remained alive and well despite everything. Let me explain.

Following the third failure and subsequent bankruptcy in 1982, the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce repossessed the assets in collateral. The only offer it received was to dismantle the facilities. The people of our community rejected that fate and refused to give up. They stood in solidarity and banded together. They did not hesitate to block the roads for days, even weeks on end. That is how they made themselves heard and were able to put in an offer of purchase based on an original, unedited collective ownership model involving two workers' co‑operatives, namely COFOR and UNISACO, as well as an investment firm held by community members called Investra. In 1985, roughly 600 workers and community members gambled everything on setting up this collective ownership model. Today, 40 years later, more than 1,100 member workers and community investors participate in the collective ownership of the Boisaco group.

It is important to understand that the mission of the Boisaco group is to act as a driver of sustainable and responsible development to ensure the social, economic, environmental and cultural vitality of our community. In keeping with that mission, over the years seven primary, secondary and tertiary processing companies joined the Boisaco group ecosystem: Sacopan, Ripco, Bersaco, Granulco, Valibois, Forrestco and Les Bois du Fjord. All of this is owned collectively.

La Haute‑Côte‑Nord is our community. It is a region that consolidates roughly 10,500 people and is one of the most disadvantaged municipalities in Quebec. It goes without saying that all of our strengths are important, that we must protect them and continue to develop new ones.

It is important to know that the forest management practised in Quebec earns internationally recognized certifications and that Quebec's forestry system is among the strictest and most robust in the world. What is more, several auditors from around the world made this observation when they came to audit us. It is important to us to contribute to the sustainable and responsible development of our forests and to provide some of the most ecologically sound products around that Canadians need, including for building their homes.

The forest is our past, our present and our future. It is our way of life. This has been part of our culture for multiple generations and we are proud of it.

To us, work is a right that allows people to live in dignity, support their family and have a sense of accomplishment. If the order is adopted, 600 direct jobs will disappear, leading to the loss of more than $200 million in annual spinoffs for our community. It is unthinkable. The impact this will have on people has to be taken into account. This order must not be adopted.

Thank you very much.

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Mr. St‑Gelais.

We will now start the first round of questions from committee members.

Mr. Martel will start the ball rolling.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being here today. I am pleased to see them.

My first question is for Mr. St‑Gelais or Mr. Gilbert.

We hold public meetings. The people in my riding think that the caribou are a threatened species. I would like to know something: do you agree that this is about a threatened species or do you have a different opinion?

August 26th, 2024 / 12:10 p.m.

President, Boisaco Inc.

Steeve St-Gelais

Mr. Martel, let's talk about the facts.

The fact is that there is only one subspecies of caribou in Quebec and that is the woodland caribou. There are three ecotypes of this subspecies: the migratory caribou, which is found further north; the boreal caribou, which is found in the forest; and the mountain caribou, which are found in mountainous regions. These ecotypes have been defined and classified by biologists according to the environment or location in which the caribou live. Such is the reality of the only subspecies that exists in Quebec. It bears repeating because it is important to understand that.

For the boreal caribou, the one that lives in the forest, it is important to look at the different census information and data that have been collected since 2013. I am thinking about the ones included in the boreal caribou recovery plan, the data published by the Gélinas commission and the data from the report produced in 2022 by the Équipe de rétablissement du caribou forestier du Québec, the recovery team. This data indicates a relative stability in the boreal caribou ecotype between 2013 and 2023. Again, I am talking about the boreal caribou ecotype.

I would like to mention another key aspect regarding the boreal caribou ecotype. The last census helped shed light on the fact that 80% of individuals counted are in protected areas that are already dedicated to their protection, or in the northern part of the northern limit where there is no forestry harvest or forest management intervention.

The picture of the boreal caribou ecotype is much more nuanced. On the one hand, there is the fact that there is only one subspecies in Quebec. On the other hand, there is the situation of the boreal caribou ecotype. The enumeration of the entire subspecies helps put into perspective the fact that the subspecies is not threatened in Quebec.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Mr. St‑Gelais, apparently there have been consultations and you took part in the process. Have you had the chance to speak to the matter? Have you been able to express what you are saying today?

12:15 p.m.

President, Boisaco Inc.

Steeve St-Gelais

Mr. Martel, are you talking about the federal consultations?

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Yes.

12:15 p.m.

President, Boisaco Inc.

Steeve St-Gelais

Okay.

During the first technical meeting, we were told that the order had been prepared and that essentially no real considerable changes are possible when it comes to the areas concerned. This showed us that there was no possible angle for engaging in a discussion. What is more, when this was presented to us, we were told that the order had been made in the spirit of striking a balance between protection and the repercussions to the community. It became very clear to us that, unfortunately, that was not the case because it was not possible to obtain any answers regarding the repercussions to the allowable cut. What is more, we understood that we could not in any way play a key role. It became very clear that there was nothing we could do to change things.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Mr. Gilbert, the order is being made to address an emergency. What do you have to say about that?

André Gilbert General Manager, Boisaco Inc.

In fact, the boreal caribou is an ecotype of the woodland caribou subspecies. There are 180,000 in Quebec. Its population is growing. Where is the emergency?

The boreal caribou ecotype has been coping with disturbances likely for over 30 years. In the sector that concerns us, the one that has consequences to us, the Pipmuacan sector, the boreal caribou have already been coping with 80% disturbance for over 30 years.

As far as the populations in the Pipmuacan sector are concerned, a census in 1999 indicated that there are 135 individuals. Another census in 2012 showed that there were 298. The last inventory in 2020, which was a baseline inventory by the way, showed that there were 225. What conclusions can we draw from that? It is hard to draw any major conclusions, but we do not get a sense of urgency.

There are concerns having to do with the rates of recruitment in the population, in other words the number of fawns per 100 females. Caribou experts and biologists who make this observation say that we need to be extremely careful when it comes to these numbers and how they are calculated because the females tend to run into the woods when they hear helicopters during the census taking. That is why a calculation is used to extrapolate the number of females. There is the risk of having a biased sample. Scientists who study the caribou tell us to be careful when it comes to this data.

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Okay, thank you. We have to stop there because Mr. Martel's speaking time is up.

We will now turn to Mrs. Chatel.

Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for coming to meet with us. I am also very happy to have an elected member here with us today. Welcome, everyone.

This is 2024, there is no denying that all governments need to work together. We cannot build an economy out of thin air. The economy is built on the resources that the land gives us and on ecology. I come from a rural riding where we have excellent forestry companies. Back home, we work together. Back home, we work with the provincial member of the national assembly, with the local officials, with the reeve of the municipality of La Vallée‑de‑la‑Gatineau, as well as with the reeve of the municipality of Pontiac. Together we come up with solutions to our problems. It is only by working together that we will succeed.

I am sorry, but we do not have time for playing politics. It is time for every level of government, the provincial, federal and municipal governments as well as the community and businesses to work together on finding solutions. I believe that when we work together, solutions will come.

The caribou need to be protected. That is not up for debate. When a species becomes extinct, that means others are at risk. Human beings are also a species. We all live together. Environments need to be protected. We need to protect the economy and the environment; they go hand in hand.

I also think that we humans have the right to live in dignity, have work and develop our regional economy. Forestry companies have a tremendous responsibility to guarantee prosperity, not only for today, but also for the future. You are responsible for ensuring our regional economy or that of Sacré‑Coeur not only for today, but for our children too, or they will leave our communities.

I would like to know what you expect from the governments. Do you expect them to sit down and work with you on coming up with solutions?

12:20 p.m.

President, Boisaco Inc.

Steeve St-Gelais

Thank you for your question, Mrs. Chatel.

I will touch only on the information and facts you just presented to us. By the way, if you go to the Government of Quebec website you will find everything I told you just now. There is only one subspecies of caribou in Quebec and that is the woodland caribou. There are three ecotypes, but it is the same caribou everywhere. The takeaway is that it is important to change the perception that the species is threatened. The species is not threatened. As a society, we might want to pay particular attention to the boreal caribou ecotype. That is acceptable. However, the species is not threatened in Quebec and I think it is important to understand that. For any solution we might want to offer, it is important to put it into context at all times.

What is more, as you said earlier, Mrs. Chatel, humans are part of the ecosystem and have to be taken into account. There are plenty of other things that can be considered, but we have to look at the big picture, take the blinders off, if we want to come up with successful solutions.

Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC

I have a lot of questions and not a lot of time.

Since 2016, Quebec has been saying that there has been a decline and that it is implementing a strategy. Does that strategy exist?

12:20 p.m.

President, Boisaco Inc.

Steeve St-Gelais

Mrs. Chatel, for our part, we have been working intensively on this file for four years. Four years ago, or even two or three years ago, the provincial government was faced with situations that could have been catastrophic. We had to work hard to raise awareness and our hard work seems to have paid off in the past six months. There was talk of ensuring that things are done differently and that efforts would be made to weigh every intervention.

I would like to mention something that was done in our region. There is a protected area—

Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC

I am sorry to interrupt, but I also have questions for the mayor.

We need to have a strategy as soon as possible. The Province of Quebec has a role to play.

I invite you to submit your responses in writing if they were not complete.

Mayor, welcome.

Did you participate in the federal consultations on this order?

12:25 p.m.

Mayor, Municipalité de Sacré-Coeur

Lise Boulianne

I am currently working with Boisaco. I did not participate in the consultations, but I am working to ensure my municipality's survival. Our municipality has 1,760 inhabitants. A minority relies on agriculture and tourism, while 70% of the population relies on the forestry, as I was saying earlier.

Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC

As I was saying, we have to work together. I invite you to share your concerns during the consultations and not just through the industry. I invite you to share the voice of your community directly. At least that is how it works around here.

12:25 p.m.

Mayor, Municipalité de Sacré-Coeur

Lise Boulianne

That is what I am trying to do, Mrs. Chatel.

Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC

Thank you very much.

Were you also consulted by the Quebec government on this?