Environment Committee on Aug. 30th, 2024

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Okay. I could see the image on the flag behind you.

You raised the issue of scientists, and earlier, Mr. Ross talked about predators.

At the beginning of the week, here in committee, witnesses came to remind us what happened in British Columbia about 15 years ago, when the situation was more or less the same. People got permission to hunt caribou predators. In that case, it was wolves. We asked people about that, including the chief of the Assembly of First Nations Quebec-Labrador, Ghislain Picard, whom you know very well. He said he was open to this proposal.

As Mr. Boulerice said earlier, as an Innu, you play a role in the ecosystem and the economic system of the situation you're currently experiencing. Do you think the idea to permit hunting of predators, like wolves, for example, could have a meaningful impact? In British Columbia's case, it's important to note that herd numbers have gone up more than 52% in less than two years.

What do you think of that?

[Chief Martin Dufour]

We did two expeditions last year to hunt wolves. Several trappers on traplines in Nitassinan capture this animal.

We've been trying to reduce the wolf population for years.

[Michael Ross]

Chief Dufour, if I may, I'd like to make a comment.

Basically, reducing the wolf population is a short-term solution. There's no doubt that if we don't restore their habitat, unfortunately, if we don't keep doing that, the caribou will continue to decline. It is a solution, granted, but it's a short-term one that must be coupled with habitat restoration.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

This proves that there is no silver bullet, that each solution brings its own challenge and that there are also potential solutions.

For the people of your nation, this situation, as you experience it in your territory, can be promising. You can draw inspiration from the situation in British Columbia about 15 years ago, which saw herd numbers shoot up. That might be an avenue to explore further. I wanted to make more of a comment, but that sums up what you said.

Mr. Deschênes, from Granulco, you said earlier that what you're currently doing is good for the environment because, in fact, wood pellets are a solution to replace coal, which is too often used in Europe, among other places.

Can you tell us more about how your industry, which occupies the territory developing raw materials, can be very good for the environment?

[Bastien Deschênes]

That's a very good comment, Mr. Deltell. You're absolutely right.

As a result of the thinking we did when we wanted to invest—we did so to the tune of $18.5 million—we turned to bulk pellets, but we still carefully studied everything going on in Europe. Europe has been going green for a number of years. We wanted to do our part as well. We targeted that type of customer, so we're actually helping to replace coal with pellets. It's a long-term contract, and we're having a good effect on the environment. By investing that kind of money, we wanted to show that we're going green. We wanted our investment to do some good.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

If, by some misfortune, this government adopts the radical Liberal order, it will have a negative impact on the environment.

[Bastien Deschênes]

You're absolutely right.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Do your European partners or customers talk to you about that?

Obviously, you're involved in innovation and sales, which creates the pure wealth we all need in Canada, particularly in the regions.

Are your customers starting to talk to you about this? Are you seeing a direct impact on your orders?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Please provide a fairly brief answer.

[Bastien Deschênes]

Yes, our customers do talk about it. Our customers are openly advocating for this green shift on their websites. They're trying to find people around fibre suppliers to meet the extremely high certification requirements as part of this shift, as I said in my presentation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mrs. Chatel, you have the floor.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

I'll turn it over to my colleague Peter Schiefke.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you very much, Mrs. Chatel.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

Chief Dufour, you stated the following:

Our communities have chosen to suspend caribou harvesting in order to preserve the species, sacrificing a traditional activity that is central to our culture.

Can you tell us how important this activity is to your community and how you got here?

[Chief Martin Dufour]

Yes. We've also reached this point, by the way, with salmon, which we've also stopped harvesting.

When there was a significant decline in the population of the species on our territory, it was easy for us to say that we had to stop the hunt, because continuing it would have gone against our principles. Fortunately, an agreement between the Innu nation as a whole and the Cree allows us to go to Cree territory to hunt animals and maintain a certain connection, which we had lost in Essipit. It has to be said: With everything that happened, the caribou moved, and as a result, our nation had all but lost the connection. That agreement helped us get it back. Thank you to our Cree brothers for allowing us to do that. These hunts are community-based and all Innu nations are entitled to a certain number of caribou. Last year, we had to reduce the number of caribou we hunted because of the forest fires that took place there. However, with this agreement, over time we can reconnect with the iconic meaning this animal had for our community. It must be said that the caribou have not completely left our Nitassinan, but there are very few of them. On our Nitassinan, we've never really hunted caribou.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you, Chief Dufour.

Mr. Ross, as a biologist, can you speak to the link between the health of the caribou population and that of our forests? Can we have one without the other?

[Michael Ross]

That's a good question.

The answer is that caribou is an umbrella species. We're talking a lot about caribou today, but for us, protecting caribou also involves protecting other species. There are other endangered species on the Nitassinan. There are the Bicknell's thrush and the Barrow's goldeneye, for example. These species are linked to the same type of forest as the caribou. That doesn't include other species whose status we don't yet know.

So the forest lands that remain in our area, which Chief Dufour was talking about, are very important to biodiversity on our Nitassinan.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

When we invest to protect the caribou population, we're investing to protect our forests and the forest industry. Is that right?

[Michael Ross]

From a cultural standpoint, it certainly helps protect biodiversity on our territory.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Ross.

Biologist Pier‑Olivier Boudreault, conservation director for Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society Quebec, is on the next panel of witnesses we will hear from. In an interview, he said that the province of Quebec had delayed tabling its strategy four times since 2018. He also said:

The federal government issued a number of warnings and granted another extension last year because of the forest fires. We think the federal government has been patient enough.

Chief Dufour, do you agree with Pier‑Olivier Boudreault?

[Chief Martin Dufour]

We've been actively working for eight years. The Quebec government was supposed to come up with a caribou strategy, but they put it off. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed to me that Minister Guilbeault had reached an agreement last year to give Quebec one more year. I thought there was an agreement between Quebec and the federal government. I didn't think it was about forest fires, but it may be.

Quebec has to be there. The Department of the Environment has developed significant expertise. We need to strike a balance between the environment and forestry work. Both departments should be at the table.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much, Chief Dufour.

Mr. Simard, you have the floor.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Chief Dufour, in your opening remarks, you mentioned that consultations should be held on a nation-to-nation basis or between Quebec and the Canadian government as well as the first nations. Who knows, some businesses could be part of that. I bring it up because I know that the caribou issue is hard to resolve.

How can we find a compromise between protecting the species and the interests of the forest industry? There is no silver bullet. However, I think it would be wise to stop drafting the order for now and leave room for joint action by first nations, the Government of Quebec, industry and the Government of Canada. Do you agree?

Before we close, I would like to ask Mr. Baillargeon the same question. Would he agree to some form of consultation before the order is drawn up? That might help us find potential solutions.

[Chief Martin Dufour]

What I understand is that the current legislation dictates that the federal government has no choice but to act. Could an order include consultation? I believe so. I believe we could include it before taking concrete action.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

The Court of Quebec has ruled in your favour, asking the government—

[Chief Martin Dufour]

We've been negotiating a modern treaty for 45 years. We've always focused on negotiation. However, other nations have used the courts. As I said earlier, we also used the courts, because we had no choice but to protect what we had. It took 45 years to obtain certain gains. We had to do it that way, but we've always been in favour of negotiation on any issue.