Environment Committee on Aug. 30th, 2024

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Before I go to Mr. Baillargeon—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Unfortunately, you're out of time, Mr. Simard. Mr. Baillargeon will certainly be able to tell us more in response to questions from other members.

Mr. Boulerice, you have the floor.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Mr. Ross.

There are challenges with predators, such as wolves, and roads that make it easier to get to caribou. Earlier, you talked about the need to restore habitat.

In your opinion, what are the potential solutions to restore habitat, to ensure better protection and the survival of the boreal caribou? What are we talking about?

[Michael Ross]

Again, it would be good to have caribou experts answer those questions. That said, from what I know, in 2016, the community closed roads that didn't lead to any cottages or anything. They were side roads with nothing at the end of them.

That's certainly the first thing. We also have to think about forest management in a way that minimizes impact on the species. People can do things differently for the future, and certainly find ways to restore the way things were in the past by closing the roads, which is one option.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much.

Chief Dufour, you said in your opening remarks that the order applied to only 3.7% of your territory. I was a little surprised by that.

Do you think that's too little? Would you like to see more?

[Chief Martin Dufour]

That's the reality. The order was conceived that way.

Quite simply, the rest of the order affects the neighbouring community of Pessamit. I urge you to try to contact its members. I know there was an election in the community, but I think they could try to answer your questions on their territory.

That said, we're talking about 3.7%. That means our Nistassinan is very much affected and the caribou habitat is very limited. There are some, but not enough to maintain a large herd. That's what it means.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Deltell, you have the floor.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Baillargeon, you made a very compelling case for preserving the economy and the caribou. There's no one better to convince others than a man who is himself convinced.

You're at the centre of this association of people who want to protect both caribou and the economy. In your experience, what should be the first steps taken as a potential solution to strike and maintain this balance that everyone wants between economic development and caribou conservation?

[Yanick Baillargeon]

There has to be a concerted effort from all stakeholders in the field. When I say all stakeholders, I mean indigenous communities, industry, the municipal realm, and the provincial and federal levels. Everyone needs to be at the same table. It's the only way to save the species. We mustn't forget that Quebec has had a caribou plan in place since 2005.

Volumes have already been withdrawn from forestry opportunities, precisely to protect this species. So it's totally wrong to say that nothing is being done.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

If we want good co‑operation, we have to start with the reality of the facts and with the measures that have already been taken. Among others, I'm referring to those of the Government of Quebec, which you just mentioned.

Earlier, we talked about the issue of predators and the example of what was done about 15 years ago in British Columbia. For two years, they allowed predator hunting. In this case, it's the wolf. That made the herd more than double in size.

Do you see that as an avenue that could be pursued? As Chief Dufour so aptly demonstrated earlier, his community is already doing this. Could it be done more?

[Yanick Baillargeon]

That's obviously one avenue that can be used. However, I think we also have to look at the impacts of climate change. It hasn't come up nearly enough in everything that's being said at the moment. The impact of climate change on the species is not being accounted for in what's being said here. It's not just the forest industry; climate change also has an impact and, yes, there are predators, such as bears, among others.

We must put a complete set of measures in place, and that's why we will need to do it together, not each in our corner.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Deschênes, I'd like to come back to you. Your company has a real impact, because you are truly involved in the green economy. You're giving a new lease on life to what was thrown out and burned in another era. You've turned it into a resource.

That has a green impact because your European customers are leaving coal behind and using the raw material you produce. Are there other similar actions that could be taken in your industry, but also in the forest industry where it's targeted by the order, that could show many people that what happens in the forest is good for the environment?

[Bastien Deschênes]

You're absolutely right: What we do in the forest is good for the environment. There have been a lot of negative messages in recent years because people were constantly hammering away at the forest industry. We harvest in the forest, like we do in a garden. The practices are heavily regulated.

Every year, we're monitored through internal audits before we're granted our environmental certifications, among other things. Boisaco certainly has a sustainable development policy. We want to go green and take concrete action, both in Quebec and abroad.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Deschênes.

In closing, I'd simply like to say that we're all trying to strike a balance between economic development and environmental protection. In this case, we can do it. We've been doing it for a number of years and we must continue to do it. We can balance saving the animals—in this case, the caribou—and saving our jobs and our economies.

We've heard people's heartfelt pleas, we're aware of current realities and we've heard potential solutions. That's why we're doing it. We have to look at what's currently being done in a positive way rather than hampering and diminishing what's being done in the forest. On the contrary, let's be proud of our forestry workers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

To conclude, I will now turn over the floor to Ms. Fortier.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Deschênes, I'm pleased to ask you more questions.

I find the discussion really interesting, and solutions have been provided. I find it refreshing to see that the Conservatives want to take action to reduce carbon pollution. It's nice to know that we agree that the economy and the environment have to work well so that the regions can continue to prosper.

Mr. Deschênes, can you tell us how your company operates? You said that you're putting measures in place to ensure that you protect the environment and the caribou. Have you done any studies on that? Is a team suggesting that you adopt a particular approach or develop services?

I would like you to tell us a bit about that.

[Bastien Deschênes]

Those are very good questions.

European certifications are very stringent. We turn to our fibre suppliers, who must show that their product is balanced with sustainable development, including protection. We have SFI certifications. Boisaco is audited every year, in an extremely broad manner, by people from abroad who come to see exactly what we do. We give them access to our books. We go into the forest to check what's really happening on the ground, to ensure that there is protection and that development is sustainable.

Granulco's responsibility is to ensure that all of our fibre suppliers have a perfect environmental footprint and that they meet European standards, which are very strict when it comes to protection.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I imagine that, following an audit, you must meet the recommendations and apply new or adapted measures.

Can you give us some examples of what's happened in your company in the last five or ten years?

[Bastien Deschênes]

Often, in the case of audits, there are minor non-compliances and major non-compliances. We rarely get an empty page, because the audit is very broad. There are a lot of regulations and we have to do a number of validations.

As for concrete examples, I will let my colleague, Mr. Gauthier, talk to you about them. We're not experts; we're generalists. However, we have teams of experts. I would have had to bring a certification person with me to give you concrete examples.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Ultimately, what you're telling me is that your company is following concrete measures. As a result of the audit, recommendations are made to you. You're organized and, within your company, you have experts and probably scientists who can apply these measures, so that you can meet the standards you've told us about.

[Bastien Deschênes]

You're right, Ms. Fortier.

We do a lot of work with outside firms specializing in the specific areas you mentioned. They guide us throughout the year, as do our employees who work on certification.

It's a team effort, but it's important to work with experts in the field.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Do you work with other companies in your sector? Do you work together? You suggested that we all need to work together. Do you already have some alliances that make it possible for you to help each other in the current situation?

[Bastien Deschênes]

Yes, because all the pellet producers in Quebec are grouped under the Quebec Wood Export Bureau, or QWEB. We sit at the same table, we discuss our realities, our certifications and our challenges. In Quebec, there are associations that allow us to collaborate very openly.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you for that. It shows us that there are other key players that need to be part of the solution.

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have 30 seconds left.