Environment Committee on April 5th, 2022

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

I appreciate that.

I'm going to press you a little harder, Mr. DeMarco. I was at an event in Oshawa yesterday, where General Motors is making an investment. They made that because the Government of Ontario and the Government of Canada made what's called an investment. In order for them to be competitive, there seems to be a need for, let's say, government “interest” in their industry.

Those are good-quality jobs. One assembly job is seven jobs outside of that. In the energy sector, I believe that for one job in the energy sector, there are five spin-off jobs.

Again, in Canada, has the government done the work to get consensus—even if it's not consensus—or some type of idea among the provinces of what these definitions are? These definitions seem to be the sticking point.

If we're competing against the United States, which is directly underneath us, I'm concerned about the implications of Canada's moving ahead. We could shut down our whole economy—congratulations to us—but we're still going to need some energy into the future.

Could you comment a bit further on that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you. Maybe you'll receive an answer to another question.

We'll now go to Ms. Taylor Roy.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much to our witnesses.

It's clear to everyone that we're all concerned about our economy and about jobs for Canadians. I am wondering whether each of the witnesses could comment on, rather than the definition of inefficient subsidies, what they think are the most efficient ways that we can help the oil and gas and fossil fuels industry to transition. What kinds of programs can we put in place that will help us get to our goals more quickly?

I think that's what we all want. We want to reach our environmental goals, but we also want to support the industry and make sure the jobs are there. How can we, in your opinions—you're all experts—move in that direction?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I can start with an answer to that question, and I'll leave it to other witnesses to pick up on that.

You mentioned the key word, which is transition. A just transition is really key. That is another topic we are auditing right now, and we will have a report for this committee later this year. You can't expect regions of the country to suffer disproportionate effects simply because of historical realities relating to their resource base and their economies. We have to have a just transition, so there isn't just the negative side of the ledger that people are worried about; they're also seeing the positive side.

The negative side would be job loss, or loss of investment, and so on. If you compare that against nothing, it looks terrible. If you compare that to a circular economy, a low-carbon economy that has other jobs that are equally attractive and that still support those communities and so on, then it doesn't look so bad.

That's why a just transition is key. We don't want to have a Darwinian approach to this, where some regions will benefit at the expense of others, who will suffer.

[Eddy Pérez]

I'm certainly happy to continue on that front. I agree with Mr. DeMarco that the solution ahead of us is not necessarily one where we're seeking to demonize one industry over the other. It's actually about putting people and communities first.

The climate crisis is all about security. It is about health. It is about reassurance, but it's also a frank discussion that we need to have. We have a delay. It has been eight years, but at the same time, Canada remains one of the wealthiest countries in the world. When we look at all the analyses, when it comes to our capacity to tackle this climate crisis and unlock these just transitions and the way in which we respond to the needs of workers and communities, we have much more money than any of the other petrostates in the world. We also need to have a discussion in the context of this element on subsidies about the kinds of resources we need in Canada to help people and communities have these transitions.

To give you just a couple of facts on the issue, we have an investment gap. We have been adding less solar and wind generation in the last five years compared to other G20 countries, except Indonesia, Russia and Saudi Arabia. On average, we are providing much less money to transition plans, even when compared to the United States—

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Pérez, I'm sorry; I appreciate that, but what I'm really trying to focus on are solutions and ideas from the three of you as witnesses.

What is it that we should be focusing on, then? We've discussed the inefficient.... Having this conversation, I agree that we don't have the time to have the conversation about what's inefficient and what's not. We have to focus on what we can do to help people and communities make the transition quickly and to support them.

If you're looking at all the things you see, and saying, “This is what Canada should be doing. This is what we should be putting money into to help this transition,” what would you say is the top thing?

[Eddy Pérez]

Are you asking me, or are you asking Dr. Langlois-Bertrand?

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I'm asking all of you, really.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

All of you have about 40 seconds.

[Eddy Pérez]

Dr. Langlois-Bertrand hasn't answered, so I'm going to give him the 40 seconds.

[Dr. Simon Langlois-Bertrand]

Yes, I can pick up.

Maybe this is an oversimplification, but at some point, we just need to go back to the original question, which is, why is there support for this particular industry? I alluded to the answer in my opening remarks. Is it for job creation? Is it to support communities? Is it to reduce inequalities?

All of this now needs to be reassessed in the context of also achieving decarbonization. How do you create jobs? How do you reduce inequalities? How do you support communities to transition in a way that means you can now provide supports, but that is also compatible with decarbonization targets?

That includes retraining in some communities, for sure, and some jobs recreated elsewhere or transferred. It also includes doing something with the existing installations whenever possible, perhaps as part of this production, or transforming the sector in a way that's compatible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

Madame Pauzé.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

My first question is for Mr. Pérez, and I'll ask it quickly because I only have two and a half minutes.

Do you share the view of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers that a tax measure granted to their sector, the oil and gas sector, doesn't constitute a subsidy?

[Eddy Pérez]

No. In our opinion, any support that's granted to that industry is a fossil energy subsidy.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

So, regardless of the type of support, it's a subsidy. All right.

I'd like to ask Mr. DeMarco a question that comes somewhat in the wake of his opening remarks and Mr. Seeback's question. I want to go back to the 2019 audits, when a lot of things were requested, but there was little transparency or rigour.

Mr. DeMarco, do you have any ideas about how to avoid the obstacles your predecessor encountered regarding the quality, relevance and reliability of the information you will access for work purposes?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Since I wasn't commissioner in 2019, I'll ask Sylvie Marchand to answer that question. She was there when the report was prepared.

[Sylvie Marchand, Director, Office of the Auditor General]

Would you clarify your question, please?

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I'll repeat my question, but I don't have a lot of time.

In the 2019 audit, the departments, which had refused to provide information, raised a lot of obstacles and lacked transparency.

Do you have any ideas about how to avoid the obstacles raised with regard to the quality, relevance and reliability of the information you will access in order to continue your work?

[Sylvie Marchand]

I don't think I can really answer that question. We have tools at the office, of course. Ultimately, there's the Auditor General Act, but we can also secure better cooperation with the departments before we invoke it. Let's say it's an ongoing effort in that respect. Generally speaking, our environmental audits have always been sensitive affairs and obtaining information, even…

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

All right. I'll stop you there because I'd like to use my remaining time to ask a final question.

Mr. DeMarco, do you think the government will be able to achieve its goal of eliminating fossil fuel subsidies by 2023?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Please answer briefly.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Are you asking me if I anticipate that it will do so?

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I'm asking you to look into your crystal ball.

Will the government be able to achieve its objective?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I'm a commissioner, not a prognosticator, but it can do so if it wants.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

That's perfect. Thank you.

Go ahead, Ms. Collins.