Evidence of meeting #120 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was forest.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to pick up on that last note. It seems as though we're taking a “hurry up and wait” approach in many ways. I understand that the minister said there was a definite need to act, but we seem to be imposing measures that are going to take decades to have any effect. We talk about road closures and we talk about reforestation; those will not happen overnight. These are remote areas. We are not planting semi-mature trees, so it will be a very long process.
The preliminary socio-economic analysis the department produced says that the incremental benefits of an order cannot be assessed due to uncertainty with respect to how an emergency order would increase the probability of recovering the species. Now, Minister Guilbeault falsely said that maternal penning and wolf predation reductions don't work, and I appreciate that CWF has clarified that they do in fact work. Perhaps it is a fair criticism to say that it is not the long-term solution and that we still may need to undertake efforts like this, but the science in a peer-reviewed article by one of our previous presenters from Ecological Applications shows that the best way for an annual instantaneous rate of increase is penning and wolf reduction.
Therefore, my question to the department and to CWF is this: Why would we take an approach that we don't know is going to work but that we know, if it does work, will take a very long time, when, if we are in such an emergency decree situation, we could take action that is more immediate, that will be more effective and that will buy us time to take on these more important, longer-term solutions?
Director General, Canadian Wildlife Service, Department of the Environment
I think Quebec has already acknowledged the situation and therefore put the animals in pens in the first place. We have supported, through funding, the penning of those animals in order to guarantee at least their survival in the short term. Quebec is managing those populations with a vision that those populations will increase through captive breeding and then will be released into the wild. The issue is that there is no habitat for them to go to. The actions that are proposed now are to ensure that there is habitat for them to go to.
You're absolutely correct that the balanced approach between predator control and wildlife management through penning and through captive breeding, complemented by having habitat to return to, is the solution, but you are also correct that it will take time. In every other jurisdiction, range planning is about establishing multi-decadal solutions to ensure that there is enough habitat for these animals to return to and survive.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
What level of confidence do you have that this will be in any way successful? You have three options. You can do nothing; you can have an emergency order that destroys a bunch of industries, a bunch of jobs and a bunch of communities in Quebec; or you can take an approach to buy time and then work with the appropriate jurisdiction, the provincial government, to develop a robust plan to actually achieve this.
Out of those three, which would be the fastest approach, in your view?
Director General, Canadian Wildlife Service, Department of the Environment
The do-nothing approach will result in their extirpation. The emergency order is seeking to ensure that there is habitat for them to go to. The third option is the one that we would like to do, which is to negotiate with Quebec, but in terms of speed, we need a partner to negotiate with in order to have success on the recovery.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
What is the best-case timeline scenario for a successful increase in population with only this emergency order in place?
Director General, Canadian Wildlife Service, Department of the Environment
There are three populations. There are nine animals in captivity in one location. There are 35 in another. The numbers are decreasing in Pipmuacan to the point where the actual number for them to be sustainable is 200. We are trying to ensure that there is an option for those animals in Pipmuacan, which are still in the wild, to have sufficient population numbers to be self-sustaining.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
I understand that, but how long will it take? You close the road. You try to enforce it. What is the timeline for that?
Director General, Canadian Wildlife Service, Department of the Environment
In the case of Pipmuacan, it is about halting a decline. In the case of Charlevoix and Val-d’Or, it is about creating a future state that will take 40, 50 or 60 years for there to be sufficient habitat for the animals to return to.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
What happens if the predators kill them all in the next 40, 50 or 60 years?
Director General, Canadian Wildlife Service, Department of the Environment
Then there will be no more animals left.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
So why wouldn't you take an action that actually prevents that from happening?
Director General, Canadian Wildlife Service, Department of the Environment
They're in a pen—
Director General, Canadian Wildlife Service, Department of the Environment
They're in a pen.
Director General, Canadian Wildlife Service, Department of the Environment
No, they're in a pen, and they're protected against predators—
September 18th, 2024 / 6:10 p.m.
Director General, Canadian Wildlife Service, Department of the Environment
—as a measure of last resort. They are already in an emergency precarious situation.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Has there ever been any penetration of that pen? I know that in the B.C. example, they actually have riflemen go around the outside of their maternal penning nets in the first nation and they're doing it there. Has there ever been an instance when that has failed?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
You can give a quick answer to that. Has there been penetration of a pen?
Director General, Canadian Wildlife Service, Department of the Environment
I don't know.
Liberal
Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC
From the beginning, it has been clear that the caribou are in an enclosure to ensure that they do not disappear. The goal is to restore their environment.
We've talked a lot about the importance of coming up with a solution. We've heard that from the witnesses. All levels of government must work together to find a solution. The heartfelt plea from forestry workers was that we need to rethink the forest and ensure its sustainability, because they depend on it. Their homes, their families, their children and their future in their regions depend on forestry-related jobs. The forest is not healthy, as demonstrated by the disappearance of the caribou. This is a heartfelt plea and a wake-up call.
Can you tell us about the history of your discussions with the Province of Quebec? It is a key partner. Quebec really has to be at the table in these discussions and together we have to find solutions. Can you give us a brief history of the discussions you have had with your Quebec counterparts?