Evidence of meeting #120 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was forest.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
I call the meeting to order.
Good afternoon, colleagues. We're ready to roll. The sound checks have been done for those who—
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, can we clarify whether the minister is able to stay? It's 4:45 now, so we've lost 15 minutes. Is he able to stay for those 15 minutes?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
He's nodding yes.
The sound checks have been done. Everything is good.
For the benefit of the interpreters, I say to the witnesses that we have to be careful about noise levels that could harm the interpreters' hearing, so please do not hit the stem of your microphone. When you are not speaking, please turn off your mic. If you're not using your earpiece, please put the earpiece on that round sticker, which looks like a coaster, in front of you.
We're very pleased today to welcome the Minister of Environment and Climate Change.
I believe, Minister, you have a 10-minute opening statement. Is that correct? The floor is yours, and we look forward to hearing what you have to say.
Steven Guilbeault LiberalMinister of Environment and Climate Change
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Honourable colleagues, thank you for the invitation to discuss the boreal caribou situation in Quebec.
Boreal caribou are an indicator species for the overall health of the boreal forest. Their decline is considered to be a “canary in the coal mine”, an indication that the boreal forest ecosystem is degrading. It has long been understood that this ecosystem is important not only to the health of caribou but to the health of our air, our water, our climate and our economy.
Quebec and Canada's natural abundance is deeply rooted in our culture and is part of our folklore. We all enjoy the free benefits and services it provides. Every day, these services include clean air, moderation during heat waves, filtering our water, commonly known as blue gold in Quebec, and carbon capture. Of course, it also supports economies such as lumber, pulp and paper, biomass and so on. However, these numerous services and benefits cannot be taken for granted. It is our collective responsibility to safeguard the health of our ecosystems, since we continue to benefit from all the abundance and opportunities that nature has to offer.
As you know, Canada hosted the world in Montreal in December 2022, at the United Nations Conference on Biodiversity, COP15. Thanks to the leadership provided by Canada and its allies, a new Global Framework for Biodiversity was adopted. It's worth mentioning that the Quebec government endorsed it and pledged to contribute to the global goals of protecting at least 30% of land and oceans by 2030 and curbing the decline of biodiversity.
We often congratulate Quebec on its environmental and social leadership, which includes carbon pricing—an essential policy for any climate plan—and for stimulating innovation in a green economy, transport electrification, day care and many others. Unfortunately, some of these successes are overshadowed by a long-standing failure. It was in response to that failure that the federal government began the process of developing a protection order to conserve the habitat of three caribou herds in Quebec whose recovery is facing imminent threats.
Boreal caribou were listed as a threatened species under the Species at Risk Act in 2003. Caribou population trends indicate that the species is declining across Canada. In Quebec, for example, the majority of 10 populations are in decline. In 2023 the Quebec government estimated that the provincial population is fewer than 7,400 individuals, a marked decrease over the past 10 years. Two of those populations, Val d'Or and Charlevoix, are now maintained in year-round pens, with populations of nine and 39 caribou respectively.
The population in Pipmuacan declined by 24% between 2012 and 2020. Without urgent action, there is a high risk that all these populations will no longer exist in the wild and that without an adequate plan they are fated to stay in pens for the rest of their lives. That is not acceptable.
We've been negotiating with the Government of Quebec since 2016. We offered to share the costs of recovering and protecting caribou habitat, while advancing conservation agreements with other provinces and territories across the country.
In 2022, we thought we had a resolution: a joint letter and a clear commitment from the Government of Quebec to table a caribou recovery strategy by June 2023. That would include how we're going to protect at least 65% of the caribou habitat. Seven years after we began our deliberations and in parallel with the findings of the Commission indépendante sur les caribous forestiers et montagnards, which confirms that this species is in decline in Quebec, the provincial government must do more, as soon as possible, to protect and restore this species' habitat.
After a decision by the Governor in Council last year to favour a collaborative approach—which we have always prioritized—we awaited the Quebec government's strategy. Unfortunately, it never materialized. In response to numerous requests, my department conducted a scientific and fact-based assessment of the imminent threats to Quebec's boreal caribou ranges. This rigorous assessment is based on the best available data and information and clearly demonstrates that Quebec's boreal caribou populations are facing multiple imminent threats.
Based on this assessment, on May 10, 2024, I issued the opinion that boreal caribou face imminent threats to their recovery. Under the Species at Risk Act, I was therefore legally required to recommend to the Governor in Council an emergency order to ensure the protection of the species. On June 19, 2024, Canada announced that it was proceeding with the development of a targeted emergency order to protect the habitat of the three most endangered boreal caribou populations in Quebec.
Our government has taken a reasonable and balanced approach to this issue. This approach aims to protect the best available habitat for caribou while minimizing the socio-economic impact. Our government is not considering this emergency order lightly, just as I'm sure the decision was not taken lightly by the previous Conservative government in 2013 to implement an emergency order in the Prairies for the greater sage grouse.
Tools for caribou survival and recovery success are shared by federal, provincial and territorial governments and must include indigenous communities, municipalities, industry, unions and civil society. This cannot be successful without the province being a willing partner, as it has primary responsibility for wildlife management and many key tools.
While we have invited the Government of Quebec to participate in the consultations, the province has thus far declined to do so. What's more, it has not provided meaningful data to support the socio-economic analysis. Throughout, we have been open with the Government of Quebec to try and find a collaborative solution. Personally, I am still hopeful that we will be able to find a balanced approach, together with the Government of Quebec, which has the most flexible regulatory and legislative tool box for an approach to caribou.
On April 30, 2024, Quebec proposed a series of limited, local measures for three pilot projects, two that pertain to boreal caribou. However, the proposed measures are not clearly defined, are subject to consultations, and have no timelines for implementation. If Quebec takes sufficient measures, the implementation of the federal order may not be necessary. However, given the threat to the caribou, if the Government of Quebec does not take an adequate approach, then we have a legal and moral responsibility to intervene.
I look forward to answering your questions.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you, Minister.
I would like to point out that the minister is accompanied by two officials from his department: Tara Shannon, assistant deputy minister, biodiversity and Canadian wildlife service, as well as Derek Hermanutz, director general, economic analysis branch.
We will now move on to questions and comments, starting with Mr. Martel.
September 18th, 2024 / 4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Minister, are you aware that your order will create a social crisis and that you will be killing jobs?
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
As I said in my remarks, the approach we took is similar to the one taken by the Conservative government in 2013 for an emergency order.
Conservative
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
As I was trying to say while answering your question, we have just completed consultations with all stakeholders on socio-economic issues and, obviously, on the issue of caribou protection. We'll analyze—
Conservative
Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
Yes. I asked for an answer to my question: I want to know how many jobs his order could kill.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Very well. The minister heard the question. I would ask that he be given the opportunity to answer it.
Minister, please go ahead.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
We're at the analysis stage. Over the next few weeks, we will analyze all the briefs and testimony that were submitted during the consultations in order to draft the order, which has not yet been done. That will take place over the next few weeks.
You're asking me to answer a question while we're still developing the order.
Conservative
Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
Minister, you are supposed to know how many jobs your order will cost. Your department has done the analysis. According to your department, at least 1,400 jobs will be lost, and about $900 million in economic spinoffs, all told. What do you have to say about that? We're talking about at least 1,400 jobs disappearing as a result of your order.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
As you know, that analysis is based on preliminary data, since the final order has not yet been adopted. Those are estimates, which could vary a great deal depending on the final order.
Conservative
Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
Minister, what are you going to tell people? Some 1,400 jobs will be lost. What are you going to tell these people, who have families, who have houses in the communities and who are going to lose their jobs? What will they do afterwards? Moreover, it will place communities at risk. What are you going to tell them?
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
You may know that I come from a small town in Quebec called La Tuque. It's a town that has long depended on the forest for its livelihood. There's a pulp and paper mill and sawmills around town. I understand that reality very well. It astounds me somewhat that your party has no understanding of the balance between the state of the forest and the state of an industry like forestry. It's because we haven't taken care of our forests that, in my town of La Tuque, there are only a few hundred mill jobs left, whereas not so long ago there were thousands.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Why is that? It's because the forest is deteriorating.
Conservative
Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
Minister, I've met with workers, I've met with companies. They are extremely worried. They don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. Those are their jobs. They're happy in their community. They bought houses. They don't know if they'll have to move. They don't know what they're going to do. I want to know if you have a plan for these workers, because if your order is tabled, jobs will be lost.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
I've met with workers too. I've met with unions. I was in La Tuque two weeks ago. I was in Lac-Saint-Jean last year. I went to Chibougamau. I sat down with these people. I've met with companies as well. One thing could prevent the implementation of the federal order: that the Government of Quebec table what it has committed to tabling. If that happens—because that's all I'm asking—there won't be a federal order.
Conservative
Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
Minister, I don't know why you're always picking on the Government of Quebec.
We are talking about the Government of Canada. What have the Liberals done so far, since 2015? What have they done for the forestry industry, for the forestry sector? What have they done? The softwood lumber agreement still isn't settled, and we talk about it year after year. I've been here for six years, and we're constantly talking about the softwood lumber agreement. What have you done for workers and forestry companies so far to promote their prosperity? What have you done for them?
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Mr. Chair, I thought I was coming to testify on the caribou issue. I think we're getting a little off topic. If my colleague wants data on the—
Liberal