Evidence of meeting #13 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was energy.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:30 a.m.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My first question is for Dr. MacLean. You spoke about how the oil and gas industry has captured Canada's regulatory framework. The government seems to be listening to fossil fuel companies instead of experts. You are one of the signatories of the letter signed by 400 academics urging the government not to go ahead with the CCUS tax credit. At a recent natural resources committee meeting, Minister Wilkinson dismissed that letter by saying, “The 400 were not experts in the field”. How would you respond to that?
11:30 a.m.
Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
I would respond by saying that's it plainly not true. The over-400 signatories of the letter, me included, are all experts in a variety of aspects when it comes to climate change research, whether it's climate science or climate policy or energy modelling. There's just absolutely no basis for that remark.
11:30 a.m.
NDP
11:30 a.m.
Professor of Applied Economics at HEC Montréal, Co-Director, Ethics and Economics at Centre de recherche en éthique, As an Individual
It's the same answer, really. I'm also a signatory to that letter. My expertise is not in technical climate science, it's in economics. There is an economic argument to be made within that letter and this is why I signed it.
11:30 a.m.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
Wonderful, thank you.
Can both of you speak a bit more about the government being captured by the oil and gas industry? Who are they listening to when developing these policies?
11:30 a.m.
Professor of Applied Economics at HEC Montréal, Co-Director, Ethics and Economics at Centre de recherche en éthique, As an Individual
This one is for Dr. MacLean.
11:30 a.m.
Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
Thank you. I appreciate the question.
When we refer to regulatory capture, we're talking about a situation where the public interest in laws and regulations has been shifted to serving the interest of special, vested interests. This has long been the case with respect to environment, energy and climate policy in Canada, and it unfortunately remains the case. The investment tax credit is a perfect example. It's pouring billions of dollars into an unproven technology that's been researched and publicly financed for decades and remains utterly ineffective.
This will help prop up an industry that otherwise has to be phased out, and there can be no debate about the fact that it has to be phased out. That's an unequivocal finding of climate science, but instead the government....
I would note about the letter that we, the signatories, requested a meeting with the government to air our concerns, and the government didn't even meet with us to hear them. That's exhibit A of regulatory capture, when you have over 400 interdisciplinary experts on the most pressing policy problem facing the country and you decide not to even meet. It's because your mind is already made up, and your mind has been made up by the oil and gas industry. That's what regulatory capture is.
11:35 a.m.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
Thank you so much. You both answered this in other ways, but I'll ask a quick yes-or-no question and I'll go to go to all three witnesses.
First I'll go to you, Dr. MacLean. Do you consider money that the government gives to fossil fuel subsidies to engage in CCUS to be a fossil fuel subsidy?
11:35 a.m.
Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
Absolutely.
11:35 a.m.
Professor of Applied Economics at HEC Montréal, Co-Director, Ethics and Economics at Centre de recherche en éthique, As an Individual
If you mean as a tax credit, then yes, absolutely.
11:35 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Export Development Canada
I can't speak about all government funding. I can only speak about what EDC does, and it is not a subsidy.
11:35 a.m.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
Thank you.
To Ms. Lavery or the others at EDC, you were asked by one of my colleagues about how easy it is to assess the risks of stranded assets and carbon lock-in in financing decisions. Do you mind answering that question?
11:35 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Export Development Canada
No, not at all. We've been working on climate stress tests for quite a considerable period of time. We've been working with some methodologies. We're looking forward to the Bank of Canada's methodology that's very specific to Canada. That's how we look at our own financing book to ensure that we understand the risk of stranded assets. It's that, together with our divesting strategy over the last three years, which is to reduce any risk that existed in 2018.
11:35 a.m.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
You talked a bit about how EDC is currently defining clean tech. Clearly, this includes CCUS and blue hydrogen—a.k.a. fossil fuel hydrogen—in the definition of clean tech. This seems like it will impact the credibility and won't really help the reputation of EDC when it comes to financing fossil fuel subsidies.
First of all, would you mind sharing with the committee all of the transactions EDC includes in its clean tech number? That can be a follow-up to our committee, if you don't mind submitting that to us after this.
I'm curious to know if EDC has plans to come up with a clear sustainable finance taxonomy that excludes fossil fuel financing, like the Canada green bond framework, or if it's going to continue shovelling public money towards fossil fuels under the name of clean tech, which is what it sounds like.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
I hate to do this to you again, Ms. Lavery, but you'll have to reserve the answer as the preamble to an answer to another question.
We'll go now to Mr. Carrie for five minutes.
11:35 a.m.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
Mr. Chair, could I just get a confirmation that we'll be provided with those documents?
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Yes.
Ms. Lavery, can you confirm that the information will be forthcoming?
11:35 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Export Development Canada
I'll just confirm that it's an analysis of the types of clean technology support that we provide, by category. Is that what—
11:35 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Export Development Canada
All of our transactions are recorded on our website. I assume you want some combination of that.
