Evidence of meeting #13 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was energy.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:50 a.m.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
Thank you.
Mr. Leroux, Canada's biggest emitters are paying the lowest carbon tax rate. We just received another scathing report from the environment commissioner on carbon pricing. These big companies are contributing only about one-fourteenth of the full carbon price. Would you consider these carbon tax loopholes a fossil fuel subsidy?
11:50 a.m.
Professor of Applied Economics at HEC Montréal, Co-Director, Ethics and Economics at Centre de recherche en éthique, As an Individual
If you're talking about the OBPS in particular, the answer is yes. You might want to do this to be competitive, but I think also that the tax break is too large. In any case it is imperative that the tax break be phased out over time.
The OBPS addresses competitiveness abroad. It should be complemented with a policy that ensures competitiveness domestically. Border tax adjustments, which are tariffs on imports that depend on their carbon content and the carbon price paid in the country of origin so that the Canadian market is not flooded with carbon-intensive imports, are another avenue.
The broad answer is yes.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for coming out.
Mr. MacLean, I'm listening to your very concerning comments about our energy future, which you're predicting.
To clarify, you do honestly believe that we should absolutely stop oil and gas production, at the very least, by 2034 if not sooner. Are you absolutely in complete agreement with that statement?
11:55 a.m.
Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
I believe in climate science, and that's what it tells us we have to do to be on path to meet 1.5°C and our net-zero target.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
So you would say the sooner Canada can phase out oil and gas production the better?
11:55 a.m.
Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
I think that Canada, as a rich, highly developed country and a country that bears a disproportionate responsibility for having contributed to climate change, owes the world an obligation of leadership, which is expressly set out in article 4.4 of the Paris Agreement, which we are obligated to follow.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
So for 2% of emissions in all the world, we should shut down our own gas emissions. That's good.
11:55 a.m.
Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
That's a misleading number, sir.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Do you have any idea what it would cost Canadians if we shut down oil and gas?
11:55 a.m.
Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
Absolutely there will be costs. There will be—
11:55 a.m.
Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
—distributional costs, but we can address those by shifting financing away from the fossil fuel industry, retraining workers and shifting our economy to a green economy.
This isn't a new concern, and we have plenty of guidance and work that's being done on how to achieve a just transition.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Mr. MacLean, one word that's been out of your vocabulary today is “affordability”.
Are you aware of any concerns with this transition, anything about energy affordability?
11:55 a.m.
Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
Oh, absolutely affordability is a key issue.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
11:55 a.m.
Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
Again, we can address affordability by not propping up the fossil fuels industry.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
In your talks and anything you said today, how are you addressing that? How are you addressing the affordability of energy in Canada today?
11:55 a.m.
Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
Well, the best way to address it, sir, would be through what's called a subsidy swap. We can achieve a just transition to sustainability and achieve energy justice by switching out subsidies to the fossil fuel industry, and helping those who are most vulnerable who will be affected by the transition. It's simple.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
11:55 a.m.
Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
We'll use renewable energy, sir.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
And how are we going to afford it?
I'll give you an example. I represent a very rural riding. They have no other choices.
What should I tell those families that are trying to decide whether they should go pick up groceries, what they can afford and how many miles they should put on their vehicle? How do you tell them what to choose when it comes to affordability and living in Canada? What do I tell that young family that says they can't afford the gas to fuel their vehicle?
11:55 a.m.
Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
With respect, sir, the transition to decarbonization and sustainability is a systemic issue, and it can't be answered on an individual-by-individual basis. However, what you could tell them is that smart policy choices would redistribute public finance away from fossil fuel industry players who do not need it and toward families like the ones that you represent.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
That doesn't fill their fridge up though. They can't feed their families when they can't afford the food.
11:55 a.m.
Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
I don't follow your reasoning.
