Evidence of meeting #133 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was target.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Well, nothing has worked now.
Commissioner, we just learned that Canada now ranks 62nd out of 67 countries on the Climate Change Performance Index under this government. That's unchanged from last year, despite a carbon tax increase.
Is this a success?
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
Is what a success?
Conservative
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
Well, I haven't looked at that particular measure, but we have, in exhibit 7.2, the smaller sample size of G7 countries. We indicated that this year and last year, Canada is performing the worst among the G7 countries against both the 1990 baseline used in the climate change convention and the 2005 baseline used in Canada's domestic target.
Conservative
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
They are performing the worst in terms of percentage reductions in emissions since 1990 and 2005. Indeed, since 1990, there haven't been any reductions. There's been an increase in emissions since 1990.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Wow. Okay.
You revealed in your audit that “The recent decreases to projected 2030 emissions were not due to climate actions taken by governments”.
Does this mean that the recent drop in projected emissions the government is trying to take credit for was not actually a result of policies?
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
This is about projections rather than historical emissions. You're referring to paragraph 7.24. I mentioned 36%, which is their calculation of what their measures add up to. Previously, the number used was 34%, I believe. What we're saying in that paragraph is that the change from 34% to 36% was not due to climate actions but to revisions to the data and methods used in the modelling. That's what we're talking about in paragraph 7.24.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
What was the total number of emissions reductions from revisions in the data and modelling?
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
It was the difference between 34% and change, and 36%. It's one-point-something per cent.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
You can table that, I guess.
Okay, thank you.
Did the government conduct a value-for-money assessment of their oil and gas emissions cap, yes or no?
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
I believe Ms. Leach has that table with her today, so I'll let her speak about that.
Kimberley Leach Principal, Office of the Auditor General
Thank you for the question.
During our audit, the oil and gas emissions cap was not in place, so we didn't assess that during our audit. It was too early to assess it. At the time, they had not completed the value-for-money assessment.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Then does the government not know how effective this policy is going to be?
Principal, Office of the Auditor General
We didn't look at the value-for-money assessment during our audit period, but they've since tabled draft regulations.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Then how could the government know...? They would not know how effective this is in terms of the value for money. In putting an emissions cap on oil and gas, the government has no idea what that's going to do.
Principal, Office of the Auditor General
We couldn't look at it during our audit because it wasn't in place yet.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Okay.
Is the government using reliable emissions reduction estimates?
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
We have concerns about the estimates—this has been a theme in our appearances here over the last few years—regarding overly optimistic assumptions, the potential for double-counting and the slow deployment of measures. All of those give us pause in, for example, having confidence in the 36% I just mentioned. That's Environment and Climate Change Canada's number. Because of those concerns, I'm not convinced that the measures in place now would quite reach 36%.
Liberal
Liberal
Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to welcome all the witnesses.
I have several questions, so I'm going to ask the witnesses to provide brief answers.
Mr. DeMarco, my colleague said that the United States doesn't have an equivalent carbon pricing measure.
Is it true that California, the sixth-largest economy in the world, has an equivalent measure in the form of a carbon market, somewhat like Quebec?
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
Yes, California and Quebec are part of a group of subnational governments that have a carbon market, that have a type of carbon pricing.
Liberal
Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC
That's why federal carbon pricing doesn't apply in Quebec. Quebec has an equivalent measure, as does California, the sixth-largest economy in the world—I'll say it again.
Canada gets compared to other G7 countries.
Can you confirm that Canada's emissions have fallen faster since 2019 than those of some of our fellow G7 members, such as Japan, the United States and Italy?
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
Yes, I can confirm that.
As you can see in Exhibit 7.1, Canada has reduced its emissions in recent years, during the COVID-19 pandemic and after the crisis. It's true that Canada has experienced higher emissions reduction levels than some of the other G7 countries.
Liberal
Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC
Thank you very much.
I represent the Outaouais region, which is rich not only in biodiversity, but also in critical minerals like lithium and graphite. In addition, two indigenous communities reside in the region. This raises a number of questions about the economic development of critical minerals, which we need to reduce our greenhouse gas, or GHG, emissions, but there are also questions about environmental protection, our biodiversity and respect for indigenous rights.
My question is for you, Mr. DeMarco. Then I'd like to hear Mr. Jeanty's comments.
How can the federal government effectively step in to promote a balanced approach across the country while also respecting provincial jurisdictions?
