Environment Committee on Nov. 20th, 2024

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the House of Commons.

I see that many officials from the Department of the Environment and Climate Change and from the commissioner's group are here as well. I'd like to welcome them. They are most welcome, and I thank them for their service to Canadians.

Mr. DeMarco, it's always nice to see and hear you express yourself in quite impressive French. Thank you very much.

Mr. Chair, we are all gathered again today with the goal of recognizing that climate change is real, that we must adapt to its effects and continue unabated to reduce emissions and pollution. Where we part ways is that we don't all have the same approach. That's what democracy is all about.

Commissioner, I'd like to ask you a few questions. As my time is limited, I have a short question and I'd like you to give me a short answer.

Is the government on track to meet the 2030 targets?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

The measures contained in the current plan are not sufficient to achieve the 2030 targets.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Is the department aware that, according to your assessment, the 2030 targets will not be met?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Yes, it was informed of this this year and last.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

In that case, how is it that the government and the Minister of the Environment and Climate Change told the House just a few weeks ago that, for the first time in Canadian history, we were on track to meet our 2030 targets? Why has the minister said this repeatedly, when you say the exact opposite?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

According to my assessment of the government's measures, based on its own calculations, they will reduce greenhouse gas emissions by about 36%, not 40–45%.

If some people have a different opinion, it's because of the other things that could happen between now and 2030. Current measures are not enough.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

It's how you read it here in Canada, but you know that this morning, around 1:30 a.m. Ottawa time, at COP29, the annual report concerning the Climate Change Performance Index was tabled.

By the way, I'm a virtual participant in this conference, which means zero emissions and no budget. This report tells us that today, once again, Canada, after nine years under this government, ranks 62nd out of 67 in terms of efficiency. Why do you think this is?

You also mentioned the G7 in your report. Can you tell us a little about it?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

As I said a few minutes ago, we use the measures presented in exhibit 7.2 to compare Canada's performance to that of the other G7 countries in terms of percentage reductions in greenhouse gas emissions since 1990 and since 2005.

By both measures, Canada ranks seventh among G7 countries. I haven't looked at the other report you mentioned, but the conclusions are similar.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I'll be happy to give you a copy. I tried to table this report in the House earlier, but unfortunately the government party refused.

Let's talk about the G7, since you've focused on that. Canada is the worst G7 country. Yet it seems to me that there are countries much more powerful than ours, particularly in terms of emissions, but in all other respects too, like the United States, our neighbour.

We know that the United States has a very strong oil industry. We have one too. The difference is that in Canada, we have a carbon tax, while the U.S. does not.

And yet, the U.S. has better results than Canada. How do you explain that?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Many more measures than that are taken into account when calculating the performance of the two countries. Even if Canada's performance is worse than the U.S., they haven't reduced their greenhouse gas emissions much either.

I'm not saying that, if we did what they do, it would be enough. It's not good enough. Yes, we're the worst country, but I don't just want us to be sixth rather than seventh.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Commissioner, you're absolutely right. As I said at the outset, we're all thinking about the future and we're all aware that we need to reduce pollution. However, our neighbour, who is very powerful and also has an oil industry, has better results than we do. The difference is that we impose a carbon tax on our citizens.

So, how effective is a carbon tax?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

The report we're discussing today covers 20 measures we've looked at, and carbon pricing is not one of them. In fact, we carried out an audit precisely on this, two years ago already.

We have not made any new findings on this subject. However, we have followed up the implementation of the recommendations we made in that audit. There has been some progress, but there's still a lot to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Your speaking time has unfortunately run out.

Ms. Taylor Roy, you have the floor.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. DeMarco and officials, for being here again today.

When you refer to the new net-zero accountability act the Liberals introduced to ensure we were actually monitoring progress on our ambitious goals, while I appreciate the fact that you've expedited your report, it also hasn't really given the year of time to advance on these goals.

However, I applaud your efforts, and I think we need to hear more about this.

I want to ask you a few quick questions too. When comparing Canada with the G7, is Canada the most dependent on oil and gas of any of those economies?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Are we most dependent on what measure?

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Are we the most dependent on oil and gas?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Do you mean in terms of percentage of GDP or something like that?

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Yes.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I don't have that table in front of me, but it would certainly be one of the top ones, if not the top one, in terms of percentage, yes.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Okay, that's great. Thanks.

Has any comparison been done between Canada and any of the other oil-dependent economies, such as Russia or Saudi Arabia?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

A comparison of what measure?

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

A comparison of our emissions reductions progress versus Russia or Saudi Arabia.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

We haven't done that in our report. We tried to use comparators of countries that are at least somewhat similar to Canada in terms of the global north and advanced industrial economies, and so that's the G7.

Certainly, as you know, global emissions are rising. Even though our G7 colleagues have made progress in reducing them, the total emissions in the world have gone up. There are many countries that are also doing poorly, along with Canada, if that's what you're getting at.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

No. I'm just trying to compare Canada to other similar economies. I appreciate that it's the G7, but when you're looking at emissions, the oil and gas sector has been the one that has really lagged in terms of meeting our goals, if we compare ourselves to other economies that have this.

In addition to that, we of course have the jurisdictional issues you have mentioned often in your report. The reason some of our goals are not being met relates to the interjurisdictional issues as well.

I'm wondering what the effect is of provinces in Canada that have either cancelled or suspended renewable energy projects, such as the Conservative governments in Ontario or Alberta. Doug Ford cancelled a number of these projects, and obviously Danielle Smith has suspended a number of them. What effect does that have on Canada's ability to reach its targets?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

The longer we rely on fossil fuels, in your example of electricity generation, the harder it is to meet the targets. That's set out in report 8, which coincidentally does have a wind farm in Alberta on the cover of it.

The longer we take to transition to renewables and non-emitting sources, the harder it is to reach both the renewable energy target in the federal sustainable development strategy and the overall emissions reduction target in Canada.