Evidence of meeting #137 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was projects.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Associate Deputy Minister, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, Department of Industry
Yes.
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
I have more questions about that, but I'll leave that for the in camera session.
Turning back to you, Commissioner DeMarco, can you talk a little bit about what you mentioned around the horizontal industrial decarbonization policy?
My NDP colleagues and I have been calling for a comprehensive industrial strategy. We see the impact the U.S.'s Inflation Reduction Act has had and we have not stepped up to that same level here in Canada. Can you highlight how a comprehensive industrial green strategy would help us attract investment?
Also, what are your reflections on the Inflation Reduction Act?
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
Yes. I'd be pleased to.
As you see from today, you have more than one department involved in the whole-of-government endeavour to meet the 2030 target, but in some ways, each acts in a silo.
What a horizontal industrial decarbonization policy for the Government of Canada would do would be a big-picture plan to guide all of the different departments, including the two that are here today, as well as NRCan, for example, in guiding their efforts as to where to best invest, from a value-for-money point of view, Canadian taxpayers' money.
It's essentially the grand plan that would be weaving together all of the different elements of Canada's various subsidy programs for this sort of thing. In the absence of a grand plan, there is the fear that each department will work too much in their own silo and won't maximize the value for money and act in a way that is considered coherent among all of the programs.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
You provided some recommendations and mentioned the responses to those recommendations. Just for clarity, was it just to ISED that those recommendations went? You mentioned that some of the responses were vague. Was the response vague to this recommendation in particular? Can you speak a bit more to that?
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
Yes. As we indicated in the report, our audit uncovered the larger issue that the Government of Canada as a whole needs to address.
Each department has its own mandate, but sometimes an audit—even though this one has only one auditee, ISED—reveals a larger problem that admittedly ISED itself can't resolve on its own, unilaterally. It would need assistance from central agencies and government as a whole.
That's recommendation 4.20, where we recommended “a strategic horizontal approach” to detail “the steps to reach Canada's climate goals”.
This is what we just spoke about, and indeed—
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
—their response is vague. That's their response to that recommendation 4.20.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
I'm going to have to stop there. We're well over time.
We'll go to a second round of four-minute and two-minute rounds.
Next is Mr. Deltell.
Mr. Deltell, you have the floor for four minutes.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good afternoon, colleagues.
Ladies and gentlemen, witnesses, welcome to your Canadian Parliament.
Remember that we're here to talk about $8 billion in taxpayers' money. Let's also remember that the program we're analyzing today is called the net zero accelerator, and that its objective is to reduce targeted greenhouse gas emissions by 40% to 45% by 2030. The public documents to which we currently have access directly target a foreign company, namely Volkswagen, which received $700 million from Canadian taxpayers.
Mr. Bilodeau, I don't want to know the Caramilk secret. I don't want to know how they're going to make the batteries, where they're going to make them, or what technology they're going to use. Your goal is to reduce emissions. My question is clear: by what percentage will greenhouse gas emissions be reduced using the $700 million of taxpayers' money given to this foreign company?
Associate Deputy Minister, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, Department of Industry
My answer to your question is twofold. First, the objective of the program is not just to reduce emissions in the short term, but also to transform and develop technologies. Therefore, when we consider the impact of the program, we must also think about the jobs created and the economic spin-offs.
Next, as I said earlier, I still don't have a figure to give you. We expect...
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
That's the problem, Mr. Bilodeau. We're talking about $700 million. I understand that your objective is long-term and all that, except that your objective is also to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 40% to 45% by 2030. I'm not making this up; it's in your mandate letter.
You've given $700 million of Canadian taxpayers' money to a foreign company, and you can't tell taxpayers what percentage of emissions will be reduced with that money. How do you expect people to have confidence in you, your project and your initiative?
Associate Deputy Minister, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, Department of Industry
More specifically, this project was funded under pillar 3, which aims to transform...
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Mr. Bilodeau, I'm not talking about pillars here, but rather taxpayers' money. Canadians have just given $700 million to a company to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. By what percentage will greenhouse gas emissions be reduced with this $700 million?
Associate Deputy Minister, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, Department of Industry
I don't have any more information than I did last time.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Mr. Bilodeau, that's very unfortunate. You understand that Canadians have a right to have accurate numbers when their money is being spent.
I want to remind—
Liberal
Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC
A question that can't be answered is being repeated. When we talk about the transition to a green economy, how can we know the exact figures in advance? It's repetition, it's not—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
I'll make that determination.
What I would say is that, yes, there's repetition, but that's the prerogative of the questioner. If the questioner feels that repetition will, over time, bring out new aspects of the question, then that can be their questioning strategy. I understand what the tactic is—
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
No, no; what I'm saying is that in terms of questioning, it's okay. You can do that.