Environment Committee on April 28th, 2022

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. DeMarco, I am going to address you again.

We know that the Federal Sustainable Development Strategy calls for the number of reports to be tripled. Unfortunately, the employees who support the auditors are now engaged in a labour dispute, and pay equity is at the heart of their demands. The work done by all these professionals is invaluable. I have always stood up for workers' rights. I hope the dispute will be resolved quickly and their demands receive a favourable response.

Are we to expect the number of reports to be cut as long as this dispute has not been settled?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I have good news for you: the dispute has been settled.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

That's very good.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

All of the employees have gone back to work. They are a stellar team, and I am very happy to see them back.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

As am I.

I'm going to come back to one of the first questions Mr. Seeback was asked at the beginning of the meeting about the just transition. I remember what was said by Antonio Guterres, the Secretary General of the United Nations, the UN. In his opinion, there will be no transition if workers are not involved in it, if we don't talk about them and we don't help them.

In your report, you say that the federal government has done nothing in this regard.

In 1992‑1993, in the case of the cod fishery, nothing was done to help fishers and their communities. Since there is no plan for a just transition, are we to understand that communities that make their living from the oil and gas sector will experience the same fate as befell the fishers in 1992‑1993? Is that what awaits workers in the oil and gas sector?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

There are similarities and differences. In our view, the situation is not exactly the same as in the case of the cod fishers. We have to see what lesson we can learn from that history in order to avoid making the same mistakes twice.

That being said, we can differentiate communities and categories of workers in the coal sector. We can create targeted strategies and programs based on their needs, with the aim of keeping the situation under control.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Ms. Collins, you have the floor.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. DeMarco, you've outlined that you've found that while big polluters are being let off the hook, indigenous communities and small businesses are being disproportionately burdened by the carbon pricing system. My Liberal colleague was emphasizing what the provinces could do about it, but aren't there concrete actions that the federal government could take to address this?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Yes. Climate change is a whole-of-society issue. We're talking mostly about the federal role today, but in this particular area, it's obviously an area of shared jurisdiction and a system that contemplates the possibility of a patchwork of programs in Canada.

The easiest thing the federal government can do is implement the recommendations that they've agreed to in our report. I'll leave it at that rather than go into them in detail, because we don't have that much time left.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Great.

You mentioned that we don't have any wiggle room in the plan to reduce emissions and that the lack of credibility of a hydrogen strategy undermines the credibility of our whole emissions plan. Would you say the same thing for infrastructure? If Infrastructure Canada isn't able to account for the emissions reductions of the projects it's funding, does that not also draw into question whether the government will actually be able to achieve the emissions reductions they've promised?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

The infrastructure program we looked at is more about funding for new roads, new bridges, new buildings and so on. Perhaps it's not roads, but it's buildings and bridges and so on. It's not so much an emission reduction initiative in the same sense of some of the other ones we've been talking about; it's about minimizing the emissions and maximizing the resilience of new projects that are coming on stream.

It's true that if you put a bunch of new infrastructure in for buildings that have high emissions, then that could affect the overall total, but with that program, we're not really looking at it as a component of the emissions reduction plan. It's looked at more in terms of value for money with regard to the funding that Infrastructure Canada is doing for essentially trying to green up infrastructure.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Great.

Can you remind the committee of how much money we're talking about when we're talking about Infrastructure Canada's funding? Is it $12 billion?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

There are four programs listed in the report, starting at paragraph 4.3 and going to paragraph 4.4. The first one is $33 billion and so on.

I don't want to go through the whole paragraph, but it includes the Investing in Canada infrastructure program, the disaster mitigation and adaptation fund, the green and inclusive community buildings program, and the smart cities challenge. It adds up to close to $40 billion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

We'll go now to Mr. Carrie, who will be splitting his time with Mr. Mazier, I believe.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Do you think we'll have time for a full round, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Yes, we will.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Okay. I'll probably take the full time, then.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Okay.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you again, Mr. Commissioner.

I want to talk a little bit more about the just transition and the execution. Again, coming from Oshawa, I want to talk about cars. Maybe I can get your opinion, because I do know about your experience with the Ontario government.

GM is investing in new electric cars. The government is supportive in that. That's all good, but I was wondering whether, when you looked at infrastructure, you actually looked at the grid and the sustainability of the electrical grid in this country.

The reason I'm asking is that I've actually had people concerned that if Canadians go out now and buy one technology—electric cars—and start plugging them in, can our electrical grids even handle that? Is it possible, perhaps, that the federal government can partner with provinces that may have challenges in that regard?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

We looked at that in the fall report, not in the spring report. That's in the “lessons learned” report where it says that if there's going to be a big push for electrification based on more renewable sources, there's no point in going to electrification if you're not also doing it with renewable sources or low-emitting sources and so on. If that happens, then obviously the grid has to be able to absorb that demand. That's key.

I think there's going to be a need for more co-operation in terms of an energy strategy that the federal government and the provinces and territories work on together, to make sure that if we're going to electrify not just vehicles but certain types of industry as well, we have not only the capacity but a grid that can absorb it and also distribute it to where the power demands are.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Again, if we could bring it back to jobs, I know that when industry makes investments, sometimes they're looking 10 years out. I know other countries in the automotive sector, for example, are looking directly to hydrogen. I know auto sectors looked at hydrogen fuel cells. Other countries have put in infrastructure for fuelling up cars with hydrogen. Now the current government appears to be picking winners and losers, and we're putting a lot into this electrification, which I think down the road with provinces could be problematic.

Do you think that if we don't put in more of this infrastructure, it's going to start to affect our competitiveness and our ability to attract investment into this country?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

The greening of the economy is a worldwide trend, as I alluded to earlier. The slower that we get on board with that, the more realistically possible becomes the potential for what you just described. We would be left behind in that transition. I'm not talking about the just transition for workers; I'm now talking about the energy transition.

It's important for Canada to be a leader in this transformation, as opposed to a follower. I would agree with that, yes.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

I am also looking at your experience in Ontario because when I talk to industry, there appears to be, with the plan of the government, a mishmash. I think you mentioned in one of your answers that different parts of the country have different rules and regulations. I know, for example, that Quebec is different from Ontario, which is quite a bit different from British Columbia as far as the automotive sector is concerned.

When we're looking at a just transition and keeping jobs in Canada, how important is it for the federal government to take a leadership role to make sure that the regulatory framework is consistent across the country? Canada has a small population relative to our neighbour down south, and if they can figure it out and we don't, I'm worried about the job losses. Job losses mean there is no just transition.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have 30 seconds, please.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Canada is a federal state, so there are always more challenges to deal with than in other models.

On issues of national concern or international concern like the climate crisis or the biodiversity crisis, the federal government clearly has to take a leadership role, not only within Canada but in terms of partnering across borders, which was alluded to by one of the other members.