Environment Committee on April 28th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Okay.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Having to thread a needle or a series of needles is a risky business. We're saying this after having done a retrospective of 30 years of missed targets. It's not just speculative.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We go Madame Pauzé now.

Go ahead, please.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank you for making yourself available and for participating in the committee today, Commissioner.

I'm mostly going to talk about your third report, concerning hydrogen. According to the report, the approach taken by Natural Resources Canada "assumed the adoption of aggressive and sometimes nonexistent policies."

Why would they use false assumptions? What value does the Hydrogen Strategy for Canada have now, knowing that it makes no sense?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Since there are representatives of the department here at the meeting, you can ask them to answer that question.

For our part, we recommend that the department be realistic in its assumptions and that its action plan be based on reality. That is very important. If we want to achieve the targets, we need a plan that works. A lot of plans were made over the course of three decades, without many results. That is included in our report on hydrogen, but, as I just said, it is important for all greenhouse gas emissions reduction plans.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

We no longer have the luxury of playing with the numbers.

In your report, you say that the department "did not find this estimation compelling and chose to use more aspirational numbers in the Hydrogen Strategy for Canada modelling."

I find it disturbing that a department would play with the numbers and allow itself this luxury when we are in the middle of a climate crisis and we need to act urgently.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

As you know, a lot of problems arise when we start to turn the strategy into concrete measures. I'll repeat: the department has to develop realistic plans. It's fine to be optimistic, because we have to be. Climate change is a reality that we may not be able to change, but we have to be realistic, not just optimistic, in the assumptions we make about this.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I entirely agree with that.

Reading your report, I find it hard to weed through the data and identify what is credible and what isn't. You called the Department of Environment and Climate Change unrealistic in terms of its ability to model the plans.

How is it possible to say that after 40 years of failures, the most optimistic scenarios and methodologies still aren't getting us to our targets?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I don't know. You can ask the department representatives.

We evaluated its performance, and you have provided a good summary. That's all I can say.

We have often said that we had to be realistic. It says in the appendix to our November report on climate change that before I became the commissioner, there were a lot of audits in which the authors said substantially the same things as I'm saying now.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Who is the person representing the Department of Natural Resources? I swear there isn't anyone.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I saw that someone had been invited.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

That's right.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I don't know whether they are online.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I don't think so. I don't want to waste time. So I'll move on to the next question.

Would we not have a better chance of achieving our targets if we were as conservative as possible in our forecasting?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

We are auditors, and we want to have conservative, precise figures, not just optimistic and unrealistic ones.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I'd like to come back to your appearance in February when our colleague Dan Albas used an analogy, that if his wife asked him to do the dishes, he would do it, but at his own pace. You may remember.

You suggested that the committee consider a heightened reporting requirement calling for action plans that implemented your recommendations.

When I read the government's news release, I get the feeling that I'm not recognizing your report.

Do you think that this additional measure might be productive?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

An action plan is preferable to just a response.

As Mr. Duguid said, the department agreed with a majority of the recommendations, except about one of them. It partially accepted the one relating to the approach adopted for monitoring costs and savings.

So there are good responses in the sense that the department agreed with our recommendations, but the responses were short. An action plan would be more concrete.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Ms. Pauzé, you have seven seconds left.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Right.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We will now pass the floor over to Ms. Collins.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. DeMarco, you said in your opening remarks that Canada “cannot afford a fourth decade of failure on climate action.”

Based on the findings of all five of your reports and also the one that you put out in the fall, unless the government makes a serious change in direction, would it be fair to say that it doesn't seem to be where we're headed right now?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

We're providing recommendations to allow them to reach their targets. Whether they will or not is a matter for pundits and so on, in terms of guessing.

They have the ability and the information to do so. The question is whether the government will do so. I'm not going to predict one way or the other. I'm motivated by the fact that they can do it—

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Absolutely. I'm sorry to interrupt. It's just because I have a very short amount of time.

My question was more about how, up to this point, it doesn't seem like that is where we're headed.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Yes, that's the cover of our report number 5 from the fall. The graph has been going up since 1990. We're the only one in the G7 that has an increased emissions since then.

It went down a little in 2020, of course, during COVID and perhaps for other factors, but that trend line has to be reversed dramatically to even come close to where the other G7 nations are.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you.

The Liberals promised a just transition act years ago. They basically did nothing until 2021, not even mentioning it again in Parliament in that session, despite huge pressure from civil society groups. They only started work on the consultation just weeks before they called an unnecessary election.

Can you talk a little bit more about the danger to workers and to communities if they keep delaying this work?