Evidence of meeting #16 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was subsidy.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Hilary Geller  Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of the Environment
Nada Vrany  Director General, Petroleum Resources Branch, Department of Natural Resources
Miodrag Jovanovic  Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

I call the meeting to order.

I'd like to welcome Mr. Benzen, who is here substituting for Mr. Seeback.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Benzen Conservative Calgary Heritage, AB

I'm happy to be here, Chair.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Before we get started, I would just like to mention to the members that it looks like the ministers Wilkinson and Guilbeault are not available on May 12, as we had expected. We're working on another date, and we'll schedule them in at some other time. On May 12, we'll probably just continue reviewing the nuclear waste report.

At the last meeting we adopted the estimates, and I assume you would like me to report our votes back to the House. It wasn't specified, unfortunately. I'll do that tomorrow.

Just as a heads-up, at one o'clock I'll be asking whether members want to stop at one or continue a bit longer. You can let me know then.

I would just like to mention that there are no opening statements. We have representatives from the Department of the Environment and the Department of Finance. We have Hilary Geller, Saba Khwaja and Joyce Yuan from environment. From finance, we have Miodrag Jovanovic, Oliver Rogerson and Nada Vrany.

We'll just get started with the rounds of questioning with Mr. Carrie, for six minutes.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here.

Given the news with Enbridge Line 5, we've seen that the previous minister of natural resources did at least do the bare minimum. The concern is that the government is not enforcing the pipeline treaties.

I am very concerned about job losses. I note, Ms. Geller, that you're in charge of the strategic policy branch. Considering that the government is concerned...or that they do want to move towards stopping the fossil fuel industry here in this country, what is the strategy as far as a just transition to replace jobs that are going to be lost due to government policy?

May 5th, 2022 / 11:45 a.m.

Hilary Geller Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of the Environment

Thank you very much for the question.

I am going to pass it to my colleague from NRCan, who is responsible for just transition and those issues, if I could.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

I'm sorry to interrupt you, Ms. Geller.

Ms. Taylor Roy has her hand up. Is that a point of order?

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to be sure. Although we have department officials here today, this is still the continuation of...or the last meeting of our study on ending the subsidies on fossil fuels. Is that correct?

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Absolutely.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Okay, I am just curious as to what that question has to do with ending fossil fuel subsidies.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

I would concur that it's a bit of a stretch.

Mr. Carrie, I don't know how you want to link that to fossil fuel subsidies, but I'll let you have a shot at doing that briefly.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Basically, different policies put stress on the sector. Given the timeliness of the Line 5, Mr. Chair, I'm sure, as a member of Parliament for Quebec—and I am a member of Parliament for Ontario.... We have the opportunity to have officials in front of us. This is extremely serious given the immediate effect on gas prices and inflation. I am just hopeful that we do have a strategic plan moving forward.

If the NRCan official could please enlighten us, that would be wonderful.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

You're asking whether fossil fuel subsidy policy could help or hinder or whatever.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Absolutely. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Ms. Geller, give it your best shot. If you find it's not germane, then we'll ask Mr. Carrie to ask another question.

11:45 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of the Environment

Hilary Geller

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

These issues are actually covered by the Department of Natural Resources, both the just transition and pipeline issues. I am hoping, if she's able, to pass it to my colleague, Ms. Vrany.

11:45 a.m.

Nada Vrany Director General, Petroleum Resources Branch, Department of Natural Resources

I'm happy to respond.

The government has been very clearly supporting Enbridge in its efforts to keep Line 5 open. As you're probably aware, government officials have been working closely with U.S. officials under the treaty. First of all, we had informal meetings and discussions. Then the treaty itself was triggered last fall. Since then we've been holding negotiations under the treaty, all with the objective of keeping the pipeline open.

The government recognizes how important that pipeline is to the four provinces of Alberta, Saskatchewan, Quebec and Ontario. To that end, we've been holding weekly or biweekly calls with provincial officials and Global Affairs. We have a team Canada approach to this. We're very much concerned about the pipeline remaining open, because it is so important.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

It is extremely timely and I do thank you for your comments.

I was wondering what the department has done in terms of estimating how eliminating fossil fuel subsidies or related tax measures would impact things like fossil fuel production, greenhouse gas emissions, employment in the fossil fuel industry, Canadian employment in renewable energy and investment in industries. I was wondering if you would be able to table any consultations that you have done with industry.

Again, my questions are related to how it's going to affect jobs and people working in the industry. In Ontario, as you're probably well aware, up to 250,000 manufacturing jobs are related to Canada's energy sector—good-quality union jobs. With this drive to slow down production and the transition there are huge concerns about it.

11:50 a.m.

Director General, Petroleum Resources Branch, Department of Natural Resources

Nada Vrany

Are you going to jump in?

Hilary, go ahead.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Ms. Geller, it would be great if you want to take the lead on that.

11:50 a.m.

Director General, Petroleum Resources Branch, Department of Natural Resources

Nada Vrany

I can follow up if there's anything....

11:50 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of the Environment

Hilary Geller

What I was going to say is that there's been significant progress in meeting the government's commitment to eliminate and rationalize inefficient fossil fuel subsidies in the tax sector. There have been over eight tax measures so far—

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Has there been consultation, though, with industry?

11:50 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of the Environment

Hilary Geller

Yes, I'm going to pass that—

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Can you table that?

11:50 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of the Environment

Hilary Geller

Yes. We'll pass that to Miodrag Jovanovic, who is the ADM of tax at the Department of Finance. He's the most familiar.