Environment Committee on June 7th, 2022

[Andrew Noseworthy]

My personal view is that it's indeed been effective.

One of the things we succeed in doing, through the hub, is taking the burden off companies as they figure out where they need to go and how they need to navigate the system. The folks from all departments working in the hub see a collective responsibility to ensure that companies get through the system efficiently, with all other relevant people around the table. This reduces the need for companies to navigate through and find their own path.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Ms. Pauzé.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to everyone who is here today to help us better understand this topic.

Mr. Noseworthy said that the clean technology sector grew by 15% between 2012 and 2020. Then, the deputy minister from the Department of Natural Resources told us that wind and solar were the cheapest and fastest-growing sources of new electricity in Canada.

However, according to a Library of Parliament briefing note, NRCan data show that, in Canada, renewable energy sources account for less than 5% of electricity generated by wind, biomass and solar power.

Is that accurate? Do renewable energy sources account for just 5%, even though they are the cheapest and fastest-growing sources of electricity?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Who is the question for, Ms. Pauzé?

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

It's for the deputy minister from the Department of Natural Resources, since I'm going by data he provided.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Can you answer the question, Mr. Leyburne?

[Drew Leyburne]

I'm happy to jump in and perhaps have my colleague André Bernier add further detail.

Yes, renewable energy, particularly from wind and solar, are incredibly fast-growing in Canada, but they are starting from a small baseline. We have generations of electricity-generation equipment and infrastructure still making up the bulk of our power generation. However, with the trajectory we're seeing in some of these renewables, in terms of both cost and application, we expect those numbers to increase drastically over the coming decades.

André, did you want to add anything further?

[André Bernier, Director General, Electricity Resources Branch, Department of Natural Resources]

Thank you very much, Drew.

Putting aside hydroelectricity—which is, of course, the backbone of our system and a renewable source of energy—and focusing on wind and solar, it is, I think, in the neighbourhood of 6%, 7% or 8%. However, as Drew indicated, we expect these to grow very rapidly over the coming years, wind in particular.

I hesitate to make a projection as to what role it might play, but there's a lot of unexploited potential. Certainly, by 2035 or 2050, we would expect the capital stock of wind to be a significant multiple environment—

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Sorry to cut you off, Mr. Bernier.

Mr. Leyburne, in your opening statement, you talked about hydrogen, which can be produced from fossil fuels or water—water being a renewable energy source.

Which type of hydrogen were you talking about?

[Drew Leyburne]

Generally speaking, we're looking at any hydrogen that can be developed cleanly. While you will sometimes hear about various colour schemes, with blue representing hydrogen derived primarily from natural gas using carbon capture and storage, or whether you're using hydrolysis for what is sometimes called green hydrogen, we're really trying to move beyond colour-coding and focus on the carbon intensity of the fuel.

What we want are hydrogen and other cleaner fuels that are significantly cleaner than their current alternatives, so when we talk about the hydrogen strategy and about the work we're doing in R and D, we're talking about all forms of cleaner hydrogen.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Forgive me, but that's not an answer. It's fine to move beyond colour-coding, but hydrogen can be derived from fossil fuels, and that doesn't help reduce our carbon footprint.

I have a question for Mr. Ngan, of Environment and Climate Change Canada.

You said that Canada already had everything it needed, including water treatment capacity and agri-tech. However, according to the information we have, in 2020, clean technology exports represented $7.1 billion, while clean technology imports were nearly double that.

I'm curious to know which clean tech products we import.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Who's going to take the question?

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I would like Mr. Ngan, of Environment and Climate Change Canada, to answer that. He's the one who talked about it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

All right.

The floor is yours, Mr. Ng.

[Vincent Ngan]

In my opening remarks, I talked about the importance of the deployment and development of clean technology in Canada. That being said, I do not have the information currently available at my fingertips in terms of the technology that is imported to Canada. That means that I would like to open the floor to my colleagues in Natural Resources Canada or Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, should they have any examples to provide of the types of technologies that are currently imported to Canada.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Since I'm almost out of time, I would indeed like to get that information. I am very intrigued to know the answer. Would you mind getting back to us with the information in writing?

In terms of clean tech, we know that the government spent $276 million on renewable and non-emitting energy R and D, including nuclear energy.

My question is for the NRCan officials. What portion of that $276 million was spent on non-nuclear renewable energy?

All I want is the figure, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Does anyone have the figure Ms. Pauzé is looking for?

If not, you can get back to the committee in writing through the clerk.

[Drew Leyburne]

If she's referring to the SREPs program that I mentioned in my opening comments, I'll turn it over to my colleague André Bernier, who can give a better sense of what technologies are in scope.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We just need a number, though, I think.

You're looking for just a figure, Ms. Pauzé, are you not?

[Drew Leyburne]

I suspect that we would not have allocated it out by technology space, but I'll—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

If you have something, could you send it in writing to the clerk?

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I'll provide a bit more context to help the witnesses locate the right figure. The government spent a total of $758 million on research, development and demonstration. I'd like to know what portion of the $276 million went to non-nuclear energy.

I'll expect the answer in writing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Ms. Collins, we now go to you.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Two weeks ago, the David Suzuki Foundation released a report, “Shifting Power: Zero-Emissions Electricity Across Canada by 2035”. The report modelled clean electricity pathways and found that Canada can reach 100% zero-emissions electricity by 2035 by prioritizing “wind, solar, energy storage and interprovincial transmission”, while avoiding the need for large new hydroelectric projects, new nuclear generation or carbon capture and storage technologies in the electricity sector.

The federal government has an objective of achieving a clean electricity standard with a net-zero emissions electricity grid by 2035. I'm curious: Does the government plan to achieve that standard using renewable energy technology, such as solar panels or wind turbines, versus using “expensive and immature carbon capture and storage” on electricity generated using fossil fuels? This is directed towards Mr. Ngan.

[Vincent Ngan]

Thank you.

My colleague Judy Meltzer is here, and I will turn to her to talk about the performance-based standard pertinent to our regulatory regime. I would also defer to our colleagues at Natural Resources to talk about the deployment of renewable energy.