Evidence of meeting #27 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was technology.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gabriel Durany  President and Chief Executive Officer, Association québécoise de la production d’énergie renouvelable
Craig Golinowski  President and Managing Partner, Carbon Infrastructure Partners Corp.
Brendan Haley  Director, Policy Research, Efficiency Canada
Stéphane Germain  President and Chief Executive Officer, GHGSat Inc.
Lisa Stilborn  Vice-President, Public Affairs, Canadian Fuels Association
Daniel Breton  President and Chief Executive Officer, Electric Mobility Canada
Sam Soliman  Head, Engineering Services, Kleen HY-DRO-GEN Inc.
Jasmin Raymond  Professor, Institut national de la recherche scientifique, As an Individual
Doug MacDonald  Manufacturing Consultant, Kleen HY-DRO-GEN Inc.
Thomas Fairfull  President, Kleen HY-DRO-GEN Inc.
David Schick  Vice-President, Western Canada, Innovation and Regulatory Affairs, Canadian Fuels Association

2 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Okay.

Next is Ms. Taylor Roy.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you very much.

Thank you to all the witnesses here today. I think we have a good panel that is showing the scope of the challenges and the opportunities to invest and grow clean tech in Canada.

I want to start at the beginning, which is the R and D. I think Mr. Mazier spoke earlier of the government support for R and D at early-stage clean tech. I know that during the Conservative government up until 2015, that budget was slashed considerably. I'm just wondering if you could comment on how important you think that funding for R and D is in the overall process. Then I want to go to different stages, but I'll start there, at the initial R and D.

Also, how do you feel about the government funding projects that fail, and the R and D projects that fail as well? I'd love to hear your comments on that.

Perhaps we can start with Mr. Haley.

2 p.m.

Director, Policy Research, Efficiency Canada

Dr. Brendan Haley

In my previous life as an academic, I did quite a bit of work on governance of innovation in public sector organizations that govern innovation, so I'll pick up on some of that.

One thing that's quite important is to have clear goals and missions, but with the flexibility to seek out innovative ideas. That makes sure that any R and D is targeted and invites that ability to welcome failure and be accepting of failure.

I think the way to get out of that, which we really need to think about—and I see this in the green building strategy—is not having rigid program boundaries, but allowing and really thinking about an innovative solution for how to retrofit a building and how it seamlessly goes from demonstration phase to scale-up.

The way to do that and maintain the accountability you need is often to have sector-specific experts within the public sector almost embedded within the private sector and working on these solutions, so that they have that information at the ready to scale up something that's working or to cut off something that's not working and not have anyone feel bad about it. This is like ARPA-E in the United States. These are the types of governance systems that you see in public sector organizations that are trying to promote R and D and innovation, and I think we need more of that in Canada.

On the building retrofit side, I actually see a way to put that model to building retrofits and not just have a bunch of programs that people get lost in.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you.

Specifically on the building retrofits, I do have another question.

It seems that a lot of our logjam is in the energy audits and having people get out and do those audits. I guess this is a question for you and Mr. Germain, because of your work. I know that satellite technology may not be the thing, but what about virtual energy audits in companies that are now saying that they don't have someone to actually go out to homes and that they can do this in a more expeditious manner?

What is your opinion on that?

2 p.m.

Director, Policy Research, Efficiency Canada

Dr. Brendan Haley

Yes, I think that's something we definitely have to explore. There's one company that sends drones over buildings and looks at heat loss on the roofs and so on.

One real value of a virtual energy audit is actually being able to get a quick energy performance label, which is quite key for defining the market. Then we save the valuable time of those in-person audits, which are still going to be necessary for those deeper retrofits and those buildings in need of bigger upgrades.

2 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, GHGSat Inc.

Stéphane Germain

In response to your initial question with regard to R and D in Canada, I would say that Canada does an excellent job of stimulating clean technologies in Canada at the R and D phase. We would not exist without the risks that Sustainable Development Technology Canada in particular took, along with several other organizations, over the years, which have supported the R and D that we've done.

Today we find ourselves with a technology that is unmatched in the world. There's nobody else in the world, literally, that can do what we do today. It's patented in many countries as a result of the kind of innovation that was fostered for us to do it here in Canada.

What I would say is that failure is part of that. There will always be start-ups that try to do things that will fail, and that's part of the risk that we have to accept as taxpayers and citizens of Canada. We need to invest in these risks that we all need to take through R and D.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you very much.

I want to thank the panel for a very rich and insightful discussion this afternoon. It's good input for our eventual study report.

We're going to break for about a minute and we'll resume for our second panel.

Thank you again to all the witnesses. It was great to hear from you today.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

For our second panel today, we have with us David Schick and Lisa Stilborn from the Canadian Fuels Association.

From Electric Mobility Canada, we have Daniel Breton.

From Kleen HY-DRO-GEN Inc., we have Thomas Fairfull, Sam Soliman and Doug MacDonald.

Jasmin Raymond is with us as an individual.

Each witness will have three minutes, and then we'll go on to two rounds of questions.

We'll start with Ms. Stilborn, followed by Mr. Breton, Mr. Soliman and Mr. Raymond.

Go ahead, please.

2:05 p.m.

Lisa Stilborn Vice-President, Public Affairs, Canadian Fuels Association

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

Thank you for the opportunity to take part in this study.

I'd like to begin by acknowledging that the land I'm on today is the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Mr. Chair, I'd also like to mention that with me today virtually is Dave Schick, who is our vice-president for western Canada, innovation and regulatory affairs.

Our members provide 95% of Canada's gasoline, diesel, marine and aviation fuels, or over 100 billion litres of liquid transportation fuels per year. They also make over 25% of the biofuels that we use in Canada.

Two years ago we released “Driving to 2050”, which spoke to the contribution our sector could make to Canada's climate goals. We believe all transportation energy alternatives will be needed to achieve net zero, and low-carbon fuels have the potential to cut transportation emissions in half by 2050.

Maximizing this pathway is also the key to maintaining energy reliability, security and affordability as we continue the diverse bioenergy mix. Also, our members are at the forefront of innovating large-scale biofuel projects, leveraging existing energy infrastructure and creating economic benefits through the fuel value chain, from agriculture and forestry feedstock, from suppliers to retail.

Increasing domestic production of biofuels will also reduce our reliance on imports, but we have a long way to go. Canada is already a net importer of biofuels, and policies such as the clean fuel regulations will increase this trend. Why is that?

It is because the North American fuel market is integrated, so Canada competes with the U.S. for investment. In the U.S., long-standing programs have built a robust biofuels industry, and the recent Inflation Reduction Act doubled down with new measures, including a production tax credit.

Comparable Canadian incentives are needed now to level the playing field for capital investment. That's why we're recommending a new 10-year low-carbon fuel production tax credit for budget 2023. Like the Quebec credit, it would be tied to carbon intensity, with the highest reductions receiving a 34¢-per-litre credit, equivalent to the U.S. production tax credit of $1 per gallon, and it would apply to all low-carbon fuels produced in Canada.

Government can also play a role in attracting investments through fostering a stable, predictable regulatory environment; promoting alignment of federal and provincial policies; and having paced regulations and timely permitting.

In closing, there's a tremendous opportunity for low-carbon liquid fuels to be produced right here in Canada to the benefit of our environment, our economy and our energy security. We urge the committee to support our proposals.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

2:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Ms. Stilborn.

We'll go to Mr. Breton.

2:10 p.m.

Daniel Breton President and Chief Executive Officer, Electric Mobility Canada

Good afternoon.

I want to thank the members of the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development for taking the time to examine the advances that have been made in clean technologies in Canada and the potential they represent.

My name is Daniel Breton, and I am the president and chief executive officer of Electric Mobility Canada.

Founded in 2006, Electric Mobility Canada was one of the very first organizations in the world to get involved in the electrification of transportation. Our members include manufacturers of light, medium, heavy and off-road vehicles, electricity and charging infrastructure suppliers, mining companies, technology companies, research centres, cities, universities, fleet managers, unions, non-governmental organizations, or NGOs, and so on.

In short, Electric Mobility Canada is the national voice of transportation electrification.

Today I will focus on the economy. Here is some important information on the great potential of electric mobility in Canada.

According to a report published by the International Energy Agency in August 2022, approximately 50% of the energy jobs in the world were in clean energy in 2019, which includes clean transportation. Even in North America, where there is an important fossil fuel industry, clean jobs represented almost 50% three years ago.

New energy projects are the major driver of employment, with around 65% of energy workers employed to build and deploy new solar plants, wellheads, electric cars and more. As you can see in the following graphic, raw material, manufacturing and construction are at the heart of this clean energy revolution, and electric mobility is front and centre.

Back home, in the past six months the Government of Canada has secured $15 billion of investment and tens of thousands of jobs in Canada's electric vehicle ecosystem. Canada is now developing an innovative electric mobility industry, from mining to assembly to infrastructure to education to electricity production and distribution, and more needs to be done, as this is the fastest-growing industry in the world.

According to another report published just a few days ago by Clean Energy Canada and Trillium Network for Advanced Manufacturing—in which EMC participated—by 2030, Canada's EV battery supply chain could support nearly 250,000 direct and indirect jobs and add $48 billion to the economy. When induced jobs are considered, a total of nearly 323,000 jobs could be created across Canada and $50 billion could be added to the Canadian economy.

Canada ranks among the world's top five countries when it comes to battery supply chain potential, largely due to its access to key metals and minerals.

To give you an example of the potential that Canada has on that front, note that there are two battery chemistries in Tesla cars today. These are NMC batteries, which were developed in good part at Dalhousie University in Nova Scotia, and LFP batteries, which were developed in good part at IREQ in Quebec.

2:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Mr. Breton.

I'm sorry. We're going to have to stop there, but you'll have an opportunity to share that information in answer to questions.

We go now to Kleen HY-DRO-GEN. I don't know if I mentioned that Mr. Doug MacDonald was on the line with us, but I believe it's Mr. Sam Soliman who will be delivering opening remarks for three minutes, please.

September 23rd, 2022 / 2:15 p.m.

Sam Soliman Head, Engineering Services, Kleen HY-DRO-GEN Inc.

Thank you, Chair, for the introduction.

Good afternoon, colleagues and members of the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development.

My name is Sam Soliman. I am the head of engineering service at Kleen HY-DRO-GEN Inc.

My colleagues, Mr. Thomas Fairfull, who is the president and CEO of the company, and Mr. Doug MacDonald, the company's manufacturing consultant, are here with me. We're pleased to participate in this meeting and we would like to spend a few minutes—

2:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Excuse me, Mr. Soliman. We don't know if you're coming through on the mike or not. Do people hear an echo?

2:15 p.m.

Head, Engineering Services, Kleen HY-DRO-GEN Inc.

Sam Soliman

Is it clear now?

2:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Now it's better. Go ahead.

2:15 p.m.

Head, Engineering Services, Kleen HY-DRO-GEN Inc.

Sam Soliman

We bring an innovative solution to today's climate issues, one that supports the Government of Canada's climate objectives and goals in reducing greenhouse gas emissions and becoming a global leader in transitioning to a green economy.

Our proudly Canadian KLEEN HEAT is an enriched hydrogen gas heating unit that can be retrofitted to work with virtually any heating system on the planet. It produces zero output of greenhouse gas emissions, so nobody will die from carbon dioxide.

The product has been ingeniously developed with an energy-efficient water electrolysis unit to separate distilled water into its proprietary hydrogen and oxygen gas mixture. The gas is supplied to a patent-pending manifold assembly that can be retrofitted to any heat exchanger unit for complete gas combustion. This results in a significant amount of heat that can be utilized for space-heating applications.

The unit is safely designed to generate and enrich hydrogen gas on demand, and consume it without any storage at any point in time. The by-product of the combustion process is pure water, which is automatically collected and reused by the system.

KLEEN HEAT is a flexible modular system that produces 30,000 BTU per module and is designed to be powered from renewable energy sources and battery bank units. The system can be scaled up to meet any space-heating requirements.

The KLEEN HEAT benefits are, first, that it is proudly made in Canada and expected to provide hundreds of jobs and manufacturing facilities. Second, it was developed with the ability to be compatible with virtually any home on the planet. The gas is safely generated and consumed without any storage at any point in time. The combustion by-product is water. It produces zero greenhouse gas emissions. There are no chimney requirements, no venting is required and, most importantly, no one will die from carbon dioxide.

Third, it supports the Government of Canada's climate plan, “A Healthy Environment and a Healthy Economy”, with an estimated reduction of 6.4% of the current 672-megatonne target of carbon dioxide equivalent set in 2020.

Fourth, Canadian households will enjoy tremendous—

2:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Mr. Soliman. We're going to have to stop there, but that won't prevent you from sharing further information in response to questions.

We will go now to

Mr. Raymond, who is a professor at the Institut national de la recherche scientifique.

Mr. Raymond, you have the floor for three minutes.

2:15 p.m.

Jasmin Raymond Professor, Institut national de la recherche scientifique, As an Individual

I am a professor at the Centre Eau Terre Environnement in Quebec City, where I conduct research on geothermal energy in my capacity as a research chair at the Institut nordique du Québec. We evaluate the geothermal potential of northern communities [Technical difficulty—Editor] and a UNESCO working group as part of its international geoscience and geoparks programme.

I will be delivering my statement in French today,

but I will be happy to answer questions in English if needed.

I'm going to tell you about geothermal systems, which are a clean technology used to heat and cool buildings and to generate electricity. Heating and cooling buildings generally involve geothermal heat pumps, which are installed over surface boreholes drilled to a depth of 100 metres. This makes it possible to extract energy from the ground and to direct it into buildings to achieve significant energy savings in the range of 60% to 70%. While these systems are installed in institutional, commercial and industrial buildings, the market penetration rate of this process as a heating technology is still marginal, in the order of 1% to 2%.

At the other end of the geothermal technologies spectrum, we have geothermal power stations, which draw on geothermal reservoirs situated at depths ranging from two to five kilometers beneath the earth's surface. Since the deeper you drill, the hotter it gets, it's possible, at those depths, to extract underground water at temperatures of more than 100 degrees Celsius.

Geothermal energy offers many benefits. It emits less greenhouse gas than fossil fuels. It's also a primary energy that's available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, unlike solar and wind energy, which are intermittent sources of renewable energy. Geothermal has a smaller surface footprint than hydroelectric dams, in particular. However, the cost to install geothermal systems is still high. To lower those costs and disseminate the technology, government assistance is needed to accelerate the research and development required to progress to the pilot project stage.

In the course of my research, I'm in touch with numerous isolated northern communities, which, in many instances, are indigenous communities where diesel is the primary energy source. Those communities want energy independence and must therefore find new local solutions to reduce energy imports from the south. My work is to support and assist them to ensure that projects designed by local interests are based on advanced scientific principles so those communities can access the best technologies and meet the highest environmental standards.

We lack support for the moment. We need increased government assistance in order to advance research and development projects and community demonstration projects.

Thank you.

2:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you very much.

I now give the floor to Mr. Carrie for six minutes.

2:20 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to continue with Mr. Soliman. He was cut off there, but I'm excited to hear a little bit more about these hydrogen retrofits for heating units. I know that there have been challenges with hydrogen regarding safety and storage, but it seems that you have developed a way in which there's no need for storage. If you are using non-emitting inputs for the electricity, that seems like an excellent solution.

Monsieur Raymond mentioned rural and remote communities. Could you describe how this would be a game-changer to get them off diesel?

2:20 p.m.

Head, Engineering Services, Kleen HY-DRO-GEN Inc.

Sam Soliman

Thank you for the question, Mr. Carrie.

The remote areas, and the indigenous areas in particular, will be a great example for establishing the system there. It is powered from green energy, and it produces zero greenhouse gas emissions. It meets exactly what the government is looking for, and in particular, there is no storage, so there is no point in time at which anybody will die from carbon dioxide or be exposed to any hazards, because it is generated on demand.

For example, when the temperature drops in a house, the furnace will kick in. That's exactly how it's going to work with our system. It's produced only when the temperature is dropped below the desired temperature, and this makes it need no storage at any point in time.

2:20 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

The greenhouse gas emissions savings seem to be tremendous with this type of technology, especially in this country. In the previous panel, Dr. Haley mentioned that we could reach our commitments, that 40% of the reductions could be made by retrofits. You're saying that with your technology, you could actually go into a home, a business or a government building that's being run by natural gas and retrofit the infrastructure that is in there and change it over to hydrogen. Is that what you're saying?

2:20 p.m.

Head, Engineering Services, Kleen HY-DRO-GEN Inc.

Sam Soliman

That is absolutely correct. Whatever pollution is being emitted from the current fossil fuel, whether it is natural gas or any other source of fuel, will be completely eliminated. It becomes zero. When we apply KLEENHEAT, the by-product is water. It is just water. There is no source of greenhouse gas emissions. Basically, the user will be able to save the cost of the fuel that he has been using over the year—that will also be zero—and he will also benefit from the credit system, the credits that he is going to generate by using our system.

2:25 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

You mentioned savings. Did you do a calculation? I read over your presentation. Did you do a calculation of return on investment? Do you have an estimated cost? I know that this is a new, innovative product, but what kind of savings are we looking at for the ma and pa who would change over their furnace?