Environment Committee on Oct. 4th, 2022

[Terry Duguid, Liberal, Winnipeg South, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to give a significant amount of my time to Mr. Longfield, as he has a very timely question to ask.

My one question is for Ms. Giglio.

I'll come to see Carbon Upcycling very soon, if you'll have me.

[Natalie Giglio]

I would like that. Of course.

[Terry Duguid, Liberal, Winnipeg South, MB]

I'll be in Calgary in the not-too-distant future, and I'll talk to you about that.

Back to the issue of procurement, the Government of Canada is the largest owner of buildings in the country. It is the largest procurer of cement, the last time I checked. I wonder if you can amplify on some of the comments you made earlier. Have you done any modelling on what difference it would make to industries like yours if the government had a procurement policy that significantly supported your sector and related sectors?

[Natalie Giglio]

When I look forward to when technologies like Carbon Upcycling's are at scale—specific to the cement industry in this case, because we're talking about concrete procurement—if Carbon Upcycling's technology was implemented at full scale across the cement plants, we could essentially cut the emissions from the cement and concrete industry in half, so there's a significant benefit to supporting technologies like ours.

Then, on the flip side, once it's at that scale or while it's scaling, on the procurement angle.... When we talk about low-carbon infrastructure, it's a very broad statement. A low-carbon building could be LED lights or better windows. There's a large breadth of what you can deploy.

When I think about concrete on the procurement side of things, you need to make sure that it talks about that performance basis, that you're not limiting yourself to specific specifications or quantities of material. I think that's going to be a big part of it, but it's part of a broader strategy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Go ahead, Mr. Longfield.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thanks for sharing some time, Mr. Duguid.

Mr. Kingston, you know I love the auto industry and the developments that are happening. Thank you for the work that you've done with us on our auto caucus.

I want to bring up a couple of questions or comments about some of your members, which are very positive. I'm very excited to see what's going on in the EV market in Canada. One investment is in Windsor, with Stellantis and LG doing an EV plant, which is a $5-billion investment, up and running for 2025. That's 2,500 jobs for Windsor, which is incredible news for Windsor.

There was testimony earlier today that we wouldn't be doing EV in Canada. Can you square that circle for me, please?

[Brian Kingston]

Thank you for all your support of the auto caucus and the industry.

Over the past few years, there has been $13.5 billion in new investment in Canada, including a $5-billion investment for a battery plant, as well as converting Windsor Assembly Plant to manufacture an electric vehicle. It's the same thing in Brampton. These are massive investments.

The government...full credit for everything that was done with respect to the Build Back Better Act. You'll recall a very concerning issue with respect to North American assembly. Now Canadian-built vehicles will be eligible for the U.S. EV incentive, which is critical.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Yes, we saved it.

[Brian Kingston]

The big question now, on a go-forward basis, is whether, given the scale of the IRA, companies will invest in Canada when they have an incentive so large in the United States.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Given the integrated supply chain.... When I look at General Motors, another one of your members, in Bécancour, Quebec, I see it is doing the battery chemical plant that will then supply other General Motors plants creating the batteries. Then they'll come back to the GM lines in Oshawa and Ingersoll. Both Oshawa and Ingersoll are committed to EV production. There are pickup trucks in Oshawa, and I can't wait to see those come off the line. In fact, I have my Colorado just sitting in the driveway—anyway, that's a whole other story.

The integrated nature of Canada supplying minerals and doing chemical processing, and then having the batteries come back for value-add in Canada with General Motors, is a great opportunity.

[Brian Kingston]

It's a huge opportunity.

The positive element of the Inflation Reduction Act is that the United States has put very specific guardrails and restrictions around which vehicles will qualify for incentives. A lot of that now hinges on sourcing critical minerals from North America or a free trade partner.

Canada is a trade partner, obviously, but we also have endowments of critical minerals that the U.S. doesn't have. I think we have a very unique opportunity in some niche areas to be part of that supply chain.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

That's great.

Ford is also doing EVs in Oakville, so—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. Longfield.

Ms. Pauzé now has the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Dr. McPherson.

You spoke quite a bit about the various levels of government. Indeed, the energy issue, and environmental issues in general, involves all levels of government, be they municipal, provincial or federal. Public policy harmonization and collaboration are critical. Beyond that, what has your research revealed about what concrete steps could be taken to facilitate collaboration between the various levels of government?

[Dr. Madeleine McPherson]

Thank you for that question.

As I was saying, one big thing that the federal government can do is help convene a conversation. One of the tangible things, actually, that NRCan has already done is provide $5 million to start an energy modelling hub. The idea of the hub is basically to bring together modellers and decision-makers. That is a tangible example of a way in which we can get different types of stakeholders, which could include different levels of government, at the same table having a conversation. They could use the insights from modelling to evaluate different pathways and explore the barriers and opportunities in those pathways to try to have a more consistent and evidence-based conversation.

That's one example that is, to some extent, already happening, in the sense that we've launched this energy modelling hub initiative. At this point, we are looking for people like you to come and use the capacity that we're building.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I actually meant to ask you how much time it would take for it to launch. We're told that we're in a climate emergency. You're saying that it's already in the works, so that's good news.

Dr. McPherson, how optimistic are you about the federal government's current approach with regard to its structures and programs designed to cut down on greenhouse gas emissions by supporting clean technologies?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have time for a brief response, Dr. McPherson.

[Dr. Madeleine McPherson]

I think the price on carbon is a great first step, but to get to our climate goals we really do need a lot more. We especially need a lot more when it comes to strategic thinking about how to decarbonize our grids and then how to electrify as much and as quickly as possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Ms. Collins, you have two and a half minutes.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I was really excited to see the $5 million from NRCan for the energy modelling hub. It's really great to see the Institute for Integrated Energy Systems at the University of Victoria as a partner.

Mr. Carrie and Mr. Kingston were talking a little bit about the gap in knowledge around what that build-out of grid infrastructure is going to look like. Can you talk about the role of the energy modelling hub and the work it's doing on decarbonizing energy systems in Canada? How would you want the government to interact with and use what you're producing going forward?

[Dr. Madeleine McPherson]

I see two major gaps.

First is improving our modelling capability in general, so that we can explore deep decarbonization. One thing that I think is happening, especially with electrification, is that our energy systems are becoming a lot more intertwined with one another. Even this conversation about EVs is really a linking of the transport system and the power system, which have historically been distinct. That introduces a lot of complexity in terms of navigating pathways and understanding the implications of power system prices on EV charging and vice versa. There's a lot of complexity there, so we need more modelling capability to be able to explore that.

That really ties to the second thing, which is that it's becoming more interdependent, so we need more voices in the room. We need more stakeholders. We can't really be sitting in our silos anymore where, for example, a power systems engineer is just looking at the power system, or a transportation engineer...or someone is just thinking about indigenous rights. We actually need all of those voices in the same room at the same time. Then we need to be able to take those insights and give them to the decision-makers who can make use of them and who are actually designing the policies and turning those things into action.

I think our biggest gap in Canada is that we don't have that linkage in the way that the States and Europe have institutions that really link modelers to decision-makers. It can be quite an effective thing. I think that's been one of our big gaps.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have 10 seconds.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you so much to all of the witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

I have Mr. Carrie's name, and in parenthesis that he may yield to Mr. Seeback.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I'm going to share my time with Mr. Carrie. How much time do I have?