Environment Committee on Oct. 18th, 2022

[Al Duerr]

For example, six years ago, in Calgary, we established the Methane Emission Leadership Alliance. Methane is one of those examples in which, as Darcy pointed out, 18,000 different facilities were reviewed to come up with a baseline. Many different producers did a lot of that background work. You then need the technologies. In fact, many of these technologies were in place.

In my other company, we had a technology we developed 10 years ago in solar chemical injection. It's one of the most cost-effective solutions to reduce methane emissions. I have some competitors, but there are other technologies. We have over 44 members in the Methane Emission Leadership Alliance. These are Canadian companies that are out there, doing it right now. They're not talking about it; they're implementing it, and they've been doing it for quite a few years.

That's the potential we have to take to the international community. We're not starting from scratch. In some areas—carbon capture, hydrogen and a lot of those areas—yes, we have a lot of work to do and there's a lot of R and D, but on the methane front, we can hit the ground running.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

Mr. Kirkpatrick I will switch to you now. As we pivot towards a clearer energy future that includes a just transition for workers in the coal and oil and gas sectors, one of the barriers from a labour perspective is that many of the jobs pay much better than other jobs do. What do you think would be the best way to overcome this barrier?

[Jamie Kirkpatrick]

I would look to the IRA—Inflation Reduction Act—as one tool to create and maintain good-quality union jobs in existing and future sectors. They've put investments in it across the board to maintain energy workers in their work, to train them to do work on clean energy and to do things like build electric vehicles instead of ICE vehicles. That's an initial step.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you. That's perfect.

Madame Pauzé.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to thank the witnesses for being with us.

It's unfortunate that we don't have a lot of time and that we can only ask a few questions.

Mr. Létourneau, it wasn't easy to have you here with us. We had technical problems the first time, and now I have barely four minutes to ask you questions. I'm just going to ask if you're available on Friday, from 1:00 p.m. to 2:00 p.m., because there will be another committee meeting, and I can invite you.

The company has invested more than $75 million in energy efficiency projects since January 1, 2018. Kruger paper mills are building on the success of energy transition and efficiency in its own facilities. No doubt, in-house expertise has something to do with it.

Regardless of the many jobs and billions of dollars that clean technologies promise, the fact remains that Export Development Canada, or EDC, sees exports as the key to the sector's prosperity.

Do you agree with that?

[Jean Létourneau]

We often have discussions with people from EDC who, following a change in direction, are also promoting companies that are dedicated to development and that are able, like us, to work on projects abroad.

Our first project, which was carried out in Guatemala, involved solar energy. For this project, all the electricity generated was used by a sanitary tissue and household paper mill. Unfortunately, at the time, EDC did not have the right mandate to be able to support us, so we had to rely on American financing and American suppliers.

However, our relationship with EDC is very good, and we are having serious discussions with them. Right now, we are looking at the possibility of establishing 20 plants, as I mentioned, in New York State. A development company will set up shop abroad to develop projects.

As for energy exports, that's a somewhat more precarious issue.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Clean energy prosperity is possible here.

Don't you think so?

[Jean Létourneau]

Yes, it is.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

So far, you've talked a lot about New York and the United States.

[Jean Létourneau]

Allow me to clarify something. We have 326 megawatts of wind power capacity in Canada. Our latest project is for 24 megawatts, and it's in partnership with an indigenous community, specifically the Mohawks of Kahnawake. Here too, we are experiencing great success.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

You're very active in the wind and solar sectors, as well as in biomass cogeneration, hydroelectricity and storage sectors.

What support do you receive from the federal government for your project development and deployment activities?

[Jean Létourneau]

Solar and wind energy technologies are quite advanced, although the wind energy sector is well ahead.

In addition, it's important to have an environment that provides predictability. Development projects, from securing sites to selling electricity, take four to six years.

We need an environment that avoids the stop-and-go strategies. For five years, renewable energy is a very good sector, but then people think we have a surplus, which isn't the case. Because of the electrification of transportation and the demand for electricity, it’s going to be increasingly demanding.

Having a stable and predictable environment is key for us.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Are you able to measure the amount of abandoned hydrocarbons and the economic impact of your facilities?

I think my time is up, so I'm going to have to ask you to give us an answer in writing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Unfortunately, we have to stick to a yes or no.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I'd like the answer to be sent to committee members in writing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Perfect.

Mr. Boulerice, you have the floor.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being involved in this somewhat difficult exercise.

My first question is for Mr. Kirkpatrick.

Mr. Kirkpatrick, we know we have to make that energy transition. We can no longer continue to do what we did in the past because of the climate crisis.

Change means stopping doing things the way we used to, but there will be no energy transition if workers aren't involved in the process. It will have to happen with them and their families, because they deserve respect.

What do you think the federal government should do to support workers in this transition?

[Jamie Kirkpatrick]

We've talked around workers a great deal with this. We've talked about the great Canadian technology and the measuring that's been done and those sorts of things, but those are all being done by workers today who are not being invited to these tables and conversations. They don't have the same clarity regarding the clean technology future that some of us do perhaps, and they need to know that there's a place for them there.

A lot of these folks and their families are going to move further south to the States if the jobs just continue to grow there. There's a new, as I mentioned very briefly before, Inflation Reduction Act. It's a very strong piece of American federal legislation that is changing the landscape and switching the dominant forces of their economy from fossil to renewable or electric. I think they're doing that in such a way that they are talking about good jobs, the ability for workers to unionize and to maintain jobs within companies.

When we talk about clean tech and bringing people along, we have to talk about the people doing the jobs today, who are cleaning up their existing sectors but also planning for those future ones, and that's where we need the investments that have been discussed.

I know we don't have much time, so I'll stop.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

We have two minutes left.

[Jamie Kirkpatrick]

I was also going to say that you brought up the just transition, and it's been mentioned several times. The thing this government has done is that it has gotten part of the way first. We've talked about emissions reductions and new technology, but we've not yet done the job of talking to Canadians about how we're going to do this with them. That's the part that leads to a lot of these political conversations and difficulties, and where we have people taking absurd positions because it defends a political territory.

Clean technology is crucial for the future, but the person who built the first automobile rode a horse and buggy at work, so we need to make sure we keep those folks in mind and we allow them to help guide how we move forward as well.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Kirkpatrick.

There is no doubt that we need to do more to support workers. We need an industrial strategy to create good unionized jobs in renewable energy.

Mr. Létourneau, you are an expert in this area. You work in wind and solar energy.

What's the untapped potential in Quebec and Canada for renewable energy?

[Jean Létourneau]

In Quebec alone, we could add at least 3,000 megawatts of installed capacity.

We need to be more strategic in our approach to solar energy. I think solar power generation could be cost-effective in some areas where the resource is good, such as the Prairies.

However, the grid isn't stable in some places, so the combination of solar energy and batteries could be a good solution for some of our facilities in Canada to avoid having to invest in transmission or distribution infrastructure. Avoided costs are an important element.

We have battery facilities on New York Island, where utility company Con Edison decided not to invest in cables, but rather in batteries to make their grid more powerful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Perfect.

That brings us to the end of our meeting.

I want to say to the witnesses that I'm sorry their time was cut short. However, it was a fairly substantial discussion, despite the limited time. As they know, if they haven't already done so, they can always submit briefs, which will be useful for our analysts. Their ideas won't be forgotten. We'll take note of them.

I'd like to thank the committee members. We'll meet again on Friday at 1:00 p.m.

The meeting is adjourned.